Minimum Wage

4X4Dodger wrote:

Lynn0527 wrote:

I think this is just a rationalization for being a cheapskate. Tourism is an industry and unfortunately an industry that doesn't historically pay well. People make their money from us visiting their shops, buying their handicrafts. Inflation? Inflation on nothing is nothing. What are you worried you might have to pay 10 cents more for your taco. Come on, open up your wallet and help out those that aren't as fortunate as us. My nephew is 19 years old and makes over $17.00 an hour just because is was born in Canada. Mexicans have a history of corrupt governments, very little in terms of a social safety net and if not educated little chance to make the same kind of money my uneducated 19 year old nephew can make. Sorry, I don't mean to be rude but your arguments for not helping others who have less is truly disconcerting.

I will let your rudeness pass because I am sure that if you had spent the years I have living and working in countries like Bolivia, Sierra Leone, Cambodia and Egypt you would see this problem through different eyes as I do. I come to this argument with Real World experience. It is not a rationalization. Overspending and throwing around lots of money over and above the local costs of things brings on inflation. That inflation hurts the locals the most.

As for the tourism industry being a low paying job: That is true in many Western Industrialized countries. However it is the opposite in most developing or "3rd World" countries. The Tourism industry jobs are most times better paying with greater benefits than their local "mom and pop" store counterparts. ie. the person working in a foreign owned international hotel (lets say in Bolivia or Mexico) will generally earn MORE than their cousin doing the same job in a local business catering mostly to the non-tourist, non-expat community.

In addition many of these Tourist oriented/foreign owned/local-foreign partnerships help pay for English lessons, College level courses and give, in some cases, quite generous bonuses.

In countries I mentioned above a job in the tourist sector of the economy is a sought after and very desirable opportunity. It represents direct access to US dollars, Many times a higher wage and the ability to learn English which in most countries I mention is the SINGLE most important factor in getting a better job in ANY sector of the economy.

I understand your feelings But they don't change the facts as they truly exist for the locals.

The best way to help people is with good jobs, education and justice...not a handout.

When I worked in Egypt (2 years) (in the tourism industry by the way) A jewelry seller I knew who had a shop and a quite nice one at that often approached people on the street to sell things at opportune moments (like a ship coming in) He asked me over tea one night "Why do all your people think me Poor? They insult me with always wanting to give me more than we agree upon. You westerners are sometimes very arrogant in your ideas about us" And why do they get so angry when they bargain? This is our way...."
His daughters went to school in London and the US.

In this same conversation he went on to complain about the French because they were truly cheapskates and didnt want to pay what they had agreed to...

Just a view from the other side of the fence.

Just as an aside, you don't know my travel history or work history so you are assuming quite a lot. Sorry but I thought we were discussing Mexican's and the situation in Mexico and minimum wage, not Egyptians. I wasn't referring to the educated Mexicans who work in the tourist industry. Some of them are probably well paid (perhaps the ones that work at the front desk of chain hotels or high end restaurants) but I bet the ladies that make the beds and clean the rooms are not well paid and if a little tip of $5.00 helps them and makes them feel their work is appreciated, then I am of the mind to help them out and thank them.

The Egyptian you speak of must be one in a million because I am familiar with the Egyptian culture and most Egytians work very hard to put one over on you. Not to be derogatory but they view bargaining a good deal (maybe even what North Americans might consider cheating) as being savvy at business.

I just really feel that as a traveller we should leave a positive impression and be cognisant of the people around us. When I travel I always feel just a little bit guilty about what I have in comparison to others. For a lot of people one might meet from other countries, it is just a dream to them to be able to travel to another country. We are very fortunate people and I believe we should share that fortune with others. Upsetting the world economics is stretching it a little.

I'm with 4X4 on this topic. During the second world war the Australian soldiers used to complain about the Americans being "over-sexed, over-paid, and over-here" and nothing much has changed except the rot has spread even further. Tipping might have become a part of the US scene, but that is because the American workers have been and still are being exploited by their bosses paying minimum wages that nobody can live on - so the remedy for that was for the customer to be forced to make up the difference.

Most of the rest of the world doesn't run on that system and as has been stated, those who flash the multi-dollar bills around as tips that aren't expected in third-world countries are just screwing up the local system.

4x4 you are a little off base. Tipping the waiters well or paying a little more for some trinket, hammock, or most of the items that tourist buy is in no way going to change the Mexican economy for the worst. Are you kidding me?
I don't want to insult you but you are wrong about tipping! Don't be cheap.

Lynn0527 wrote:

I think this is just a rationalization for being a cheapskate. Tourism is an industry and unfortunately an industry that doesn't historically pay well. People make their money from us visiting their shops, buying their handicrafts. Inflation? Inflation on nothing is nothing. What are you worried you might have to pay 10 cents more for your taco. Come on, open up your wallet and help out those that aren't as fortunate as us. My nephew is 19 years old and makes over $17.00 an hour just because is was born in Canada. Mexicans have a history of corrupt governments, very little in terms of a social safety net and if not educated little chance to make the same kind of money my uneducated 19 year old nephew can make. Sorry, I don't mean to be rude but your arguments for not helping others who have less is truly disconcerting.

I will let your rudeness pass because I am sure that if you had spent the years I have living and working in countries like Bolivia, Sierra Leone, Cambodia and Egypt you would see this problem through different eyes as I do. I come to this argument with Real World experience. It is not a rationalization. Overspending and throwing around lots of money over and above the local costs of things brings on inflation. That inflation hurts the locals the most.

As for the tourism industry being a low paying job: That is true in many Western Industrialized countries. However it is the opposite in most developing or "3rd World" countries. The Tourism industry jobs are most times better paying with greater benefits than their local "mom and pop" store counterparts. ie. the person working in a foreign owned international hotel (lets say in Bolivia or Mexico) will generally earn MORE than their cousin doing the same job in a local business catering mostly to the non-tourist, non-expat community.

In addition many of these Tourist oriented/foreign owned/local-foreign partnerships help pay for English lessons, College level courses and give, in some cases, quite generous bonuses.

In countries I mentioned above a job in the tourist sector of the economy is a sought after and very desirable opportunity. It represents direct access to US dollars, Many times a higher wage and the ability to learn English which in most countries I mention is the SINGLE most important factor in getting a better job in ANY sector of the economy.

I understand your feelings But they don't change the facts as they truly exist for the locals.

The best way to help people is with good jobs, education and justice...not a handout.

When I worked in Egypt (2 years) (in the tourism industry by the way) A jewelry seller I knew who had a shop and a quite nice one at that often approached people on the street to sell things at opportune moments (like a ship coming in) He asked me over tea one night "Why do all your people think me Poor? They insult me with always wanting to give me more than we agree upon. You westerners are sometimes very arrogant in your ideas about us" And why do they get so angry when they bargain? This is our way...."
His daughters went to school in London and the US.

In this same conversation he went on to complain about the French because they were truly cheapskates and didnt want to pay what they had agreed to...

Just a view from the other side of the fence.

This subject comes up often in expat forums. MOST do not want to pay their help a living wage. I don't mean a Canadian style wage just a Mexican living wage. They will pay a house cleaner 100 to 150 pesos a day. Sometimes they provide a meal. Any suggestion that the wages should be higher starts a forum riot! Food is not cheap in Mexico. Beans are 10.5 per Kilo, Tomatoes 9.5, whole chicken 29.5 per K, Mayo ( a Mexican fave!) is 20p for 285 gr., Chorizo 16 for 250 gr., Chile verde, 20 per K. I could go on but the point is that how can anyone live on 100 to 150 pesos a day. remember that cleaner does not have seguro! A lot of waiters also do not have seguro. So a decent tip goes a long way!!

Moisheh

4X4Dodger wrote:

Canadian Rainbirds wrote:
Hope I'm not breaking any rules here; This is a quote from a poster on Zihuatanejo.net

"As of today, the minimum wage rate for Zone A is MXP $70.10, for B MXP $66.45. At the current exchange rate, that's USD $4.76 and $4.51....PER DAY!
I think it is important for tourists coming from another country to know this and to keep it in mind especially when tipping, "haggling", etc.
We have always done our best to inform other gringos we bump into."

I am confused...what on earth does the legal minimum wage have to do with my tips or when negotiating for anything. If I am negotiating with a shop OWNER it is up to him to set his lowest price to be sure he can make a profit. And you can bet he/she does.

When I tip a waiter/waitress in a restaurant their wages dont come into the equation at all. The only real considerations are the service and the total bill...

Let me relate a short story about this subject: Having lived in Asia for the past 8 years and traveled and worked and done business overseas on every continent for more than 30 years I can say: dont judge by appearances.

When I needed rain gutters for my small hotel I went to a small dilapidated shop in town that specialized in metal gutters. The scraggily middle aged man who dealt with me came to my hotel on his beat up barely running moto (scooter) and took measurements and I paid him about 1/2 of the total with the other half due on delivery. Due to construction delays he had to wait to deliver the gutters longer than he wanted.

One rainy day just before a major holiday I notice a new Mercedes E430 drive into our parking lot...the gutter man got out and came to ask me to pay the balance! Of course I said NO the deal was he wait until they were delivered. About two weeks later he delivered and installed them and got paid. But he came on his scooter again.

When traveling in any country dont get involved in trying to right all the wrongs or "change" things. This is up to the people who live there not the visitors. Most of the time I have seen expats try to do this it has backfired with usually terrible unintended consequences.

Well, the minimum wage rate has a great deal to do with gratuities in many jurisdictions in both Canada and the United States. I do not know about Mexico. It is very common in both Canada and the US for the minimum wage for serving persons that serve alcohol to have a lower minimum wage than those that do NOT serve alcohol. The logic of the legislators, and I use that term very loosely, is that as the persons serving alcohol are more likely to receive gratuities and therefore, the minimum wage should be reduced to compensate for the gratuities. That, in my opinion qualifies as illogical, to say the very least. The effect is that the legislators have simply concluded that the owner of the establishment should participate in the gratuities received by the serving persons. I have read reports that some jurisdiction provide for an alcohol server minimum wage that is less than $5.00 per hour in both countries. As you may have concluded, the hospitality lobby is very strong and effective!
Anybody here currently or historically accustomed to working for $5.00 an hour??????????????????????? I very much doubt it.:E

There are tips and then there are tips

https://gma.yahoo.com/tips-jesus-tipper-leaves-11-000-2-tips-200436921--abc-news-personal-finance.html

4X4Dodger wrote:
Many of the posters on this subject have good and generous intentions and undoubtedly think that being "generous" is a good thing.

Allow me to turn the coin over and show the other side.

When a "gringo", expat or tourist pays too much for anything in a developing country it has consequences. It usually results in inflation sometimes on a macro level but mostly on a micro or local level.

When a town or province becomes a tourist destination or a desirable location for Expats to live and they willingly pay more for nearly everything, shop keepers, landlords and restaurants see they can charge more. This means the locals have a hard time competing in that inflationary economy.

Take the example of Ecuador: The old Colonial city of Cuenca where expats have moved to in droves. Instead of paying at least close to the local price for rents they have been actually bidding UP prices. Paying much more than a local would have paid for the same apartment.

Landlords take about 30 seconds then to catch on to this trend and raise prices leaving most Ecuadorians out of the housing market. This is an example of micro inflation and it hurts the locals.

At restaurants the same is true, local places quickly figure out that they can raise prices because the tourists are willing to pay so much more...this drives food costs up and the locals away from places they used to eat at. Meanwhile your server is probably a member of the family that OWNS the restaurant and all those big tips just go into the profit. Even if the server is an employee the owner is more than likely taking those tips or most of them for him/her self. This is ESPECIALLY true if he sees a big tip being given. If an owner sees that the servers are getting bigger and bigger tips they have been know to CUT the servers wages.

The upshot is that your generosity is likely to backfire and have exactly the opposite effect you intended.

Negotiating is EXPECTED. You are not cheating them. They will never sell you something for less than a profitable amount...period. So if they agree to your price you can be sure they are happy with it. Now they may not be happy that you are savvy enough to negotiate well or at all...would they prefer you to just accept the outrageous first price they throw out? Of course they would be. Do they respect you or like you more because of it. No they do not.

And the other unintended consequence of that generosity is that all of the expats and tourists that follow all of you very well meaning and generous folks end up paying more and more for everything...resulting in an ever widening circle of inflation that truly hurts the locals.

I have watched this phenomenon play out many many times in more than one country I have lived in. But the one thing that usually never increases are the locals wages. They stay at the local level.

You cant change this but you can act in ways that don't add to their problems or make things more expensive. Paying as close to the local price as possible is really what is best for all concerned.

I think this is just a rationalization for being a cheapskate. Tourism is an industry and unfortunately an industry that doesn't historically pay well. People make their money from us visiting their shops, buying their handicrafts. Inflation? Inflation on nothing is nothing. What are you worried you might have to pay 10 cents more for your taco. Come on, open up your wallet and help out those that aren't as fortunate as us. My nephew is 19 years old and makes over $17.00 an hour just because is was born in Canada. Mexicans have a history of corrupt governments, very little in terms of a social safety net and if not educated little chance to make the same kind of money my uneducated 19 year old nephew can make. Sorry, I don't mean to be rude but your arguments for not helping others who have less is truly disconcerting.

moisheh wrote:
Lynn: You are an exceptional Canuck. Most of my fellow countrymen are CHEAP and proud of it! There was one regular poster here who refused to pay more than $10 for a Campground!!!

Moisheh

Oh how right you are,unfortunately.If you are ever in Yuma go to the open markets and listen.Degrading and embarrassing,I have gone up to more then one vendor when the transaction was over and asked them not to judge all my country men by a few.Shake my head.

Many of the posters on this subject have good and generous intentions and undoubtedly think that being "generous" is a good thing.

Allow me to turn the coin over and show the other side.

When a "gringo", expat or tourist pays too much for anything in a developing country it has consequences. It usually results in inflation sometimes on a macro level but mostly on a micro or local level.

When a town or province becomes a tourist destination or a desirable location for Expats to live and they willingly pay more for nearly everything, shop keepers, landlords and restaurants see they can charge more. This means the locals have a hard time competing in that inflationary economy.

Take the example of Ecuador: The old Colonial city of Cuenca where expats have moved to in droves. Instead of paying at least close to the local price for rents they have been actually bidding UP prices. Paying much more than a local would have paid for the same apartment.

Landlords take about 30 seconds then to catch on to this trend and raise prices leaving most Ecuadorians out of the housing market. This is an example of micro inflation and it hurts the locals.

At restaurants the same is true, local places quickly figure out that they can raise prices because the tourists are willing to pay so much more...this drives food costs up and the locals away from places they used to eat at. Meanwhile your server is probably a member of the family that OWNS the restaurant and all those big tips just go into the profit. Even if the server is an employee the owner is more than likely taking those tips or most of them for him/her self. This is ESPECIALLY true if he sees a big tip being given. If an owner sees that the servers are getting bigger and bigger tips they have been know to CUT the servers wages.

The upshot is that your generosity is likely to backfire and have exactly the opposite effect you intended.

Negotiating is EXPECTED. You are not cheating them. They will never sell you something for less than a profitable amount...period. So if they agree to your price you can be sure they are happy with it. Now they may not be happy that you are savvy enough to negotiate well or at all...would they prefer you to just accept the outrageous first price they throw out? Of course they would be. Do they respect you or like you more because of it. No they do not.

And the other unintended consequence of that generosity is that all of the expats and tourists that follow all of you very well meaning and generous folks end up paying more and more for everything...resulting in an ever widening circle of inflation that truly hurts the locals.

I have watched this phenomenon play out many many times in more than one country I have lived in. But the one thing that usually never increases are the locals wages. They stay at the local level.

You cant change this but you can act in ways that don't add to their problems or make things more expensive. Paying as close to the local price as possible is really what is best for all concerned.