Incremental cancellation penalty

oh i agree, we almost never make reservations, except for specific group outings

i was was replying to the statement of 'overnighters' getting to use the site

that is simply very unlikely to happen

CarnationSailor wrote:

westernrvparkowner wrote:

CarnationSailor wrote:
Washington state went to this system a couple of years ago and I have been burned by it twice already. If you want to get a site at a popular state park on a holiday weekend, you have to reserve it at 7:00 AM, 9 months before the date you want to arrive. Twice I made reservations 9 months in advance, and then 6 months later, I had to cancel due to circumstances beyond my control. It really PO'ed me to pay a 40 or 50% cancellation fee. Clearly, I wasn't trying to "game" the system. I guess it was just a situation where a rule meant to punish the guilty also punished the innocent. But I still don't like it.

There just isn't a definition of "beyond my control". Anyone with a wife and kid would agree that if they decided to go to Disneyland instead of Yosemite, that would indeed be a circumstance beyond their control. But most of us would argue that really doesn't justify getting refunded a non-refundable deposit. I don't know how many grandparents you have, but I can point you to a few people who have had a baker's dozen of them pass away, each time right before they were going on vacation, or so they say.

I think you are missing the point. Michigan and Washington didn't change their cancellation policies because people were giving them bogus reasons. They did it because people were tying up multiple campsites for months and then cancelling them just before the arrival date with only a $10 cancellation fee. (I think this was the reason, but I might be wrong.) In my case, I think it was unreasonable to charge me $100 (roughly 50 of the total cost) when I was cancelling 3 months before the arrival date.

I see the point very clearly. The point is, as soon as you start making exceptions people will start gaming those exceptions, just like they game the reservation system. If they only charged you $10 because you had "valid reason", then everyone will be charged $10 because everyone will say they have a "valid reason" and the policy will be a failure. If you don't want people to make reservations they plan on cancelling in the future if they change their plans, then you have to have a policy that makes doing that unpalatable. Experience has shown that only a stiff financial penalty has much impact. Exceptions will neuter that penalty.

MrWizard wrote:
around here, especially the beach campgounds
the only way an overnighter will find a space is if somebody has too suddenly leave just as the overnighter is arriving

the cancels and no show, go for first come, first served around noon
you arrive in the morning, and put your name on the list and 'hope' a site opens up, if it don't, your lucky if there is an overflow field, and if not, you get on the road

Under those conditions, at least someone gets to use the site -

As non-reservation folks, we know we take a chance arriving without a site - that's a choice WE make. Sometimes, we miss out and have to wing it in overflow, or even drive further. But we arrive in plenty of time to "option" when necessary. That's part of our planning ...

What is the point here, mainly, sites go empty when reserved and the party is a no-show. That's the reality of low fees or no fees for no-show campers who game the system. And a higher fee for no-shows would dampen that a bit (well, maybe, some have such large wallets it wouldn't matter) But at least the campground could use the funds.

We believe a high no-show fee, paid as a non-refundable deposit, AND release of that site after one-day without check-in would help everyone. It opens the site to use, and it increases revenue for the parks.

Could even be limited a one-day camp until (if) the reservation party shows up - so, if for some reason that party arrives late, it still has part of its holiday ... fair to everyone, in that case, we think anyway.

westernrvparkowner wrote:

CarnationSailor wrote:
Washington state went to this system a couple of years ago and I have been burned by it twice already. If you want to get a site at a popular state park on a holiday weekend, you have to reserve it at 7:00 AM, 9 months before the date you want to arrive. Twice I made reservations 9 months in advance, and then 6 months later, I had to cancel due to circumstances beyond my control. It really PO'ed me to pay a 40 or 50% cancellation fee. Clearly, I wasn't trying to "game" the system. I guess it was just a situation where a rule meant to punish the guilty also punished the innocent. But I still don't like it.

There just isn't a definition of "beyond my control". Anyone with a wife and kid would agree that if they decided to go to Disneyland instead of Yosemite, that would indeed be a circumstance beyond their control. But most of us would argue that really doesn't justify getting refunded a non-refundable deposit. I don't know how many grandparents you have, but I can point you to a few people who have had a baker's dozen of them pass away, each time right before they were going on vacation, or so they say.

I think you are missing the point. Michigan and Washington didn't change their cancellation policies because people were giving them bogus reasons. They did it because people were tying up multiple campsites for months and then cancelling them just before the arrival date with only a $10 cancellation fee. (I think this was the reason, but I might be wrong.) In my case, I think it was unreasonable to charge me $100 (roughly 50% of the total cost) when I was cancelling 3 months before the arrival date.

CarnationSailor wrote:
Washington state went to this system a couple of years ago and I have been burned by it twice already. If you want to get a site at a popular state park on a holiday weekend, you have to reserve it at 7:00 AM, 9 months before the date you want to arrive. Twice I made reservations 9 months in advance, and then 6 months later, I had to cancel due to circumstances beyond my control. It really PO'ed me to pay a 40 or 50% cancellation fee. Clearly, I wasn't trying to "game" the system. I guess it was just a situation where a rule meant to punish the guilty also punished the innocent. But I still don't like it.

There just isn't a definition of "beyond my control". Anyone with a wife and kid would agree that if they decided to go to Disneyland instead of Yosemite, that would indeed be a circumstance beyond their control. But most of us would argue that really doesn't justify getting refunded a non-refundable deposit. I don't know how many grandparents you have, but I can point you to a few people who have had a baker's dozen of them pass away, each time right before they were going on vacation, or so they say.

Washington state went to this system a couple of years ago and I have been burned by it twice already. If you want to get a site at a popular state park on a holiday weekend, you have to reserve it at 7:00 AM, 9 months before the date you want to arrive. Twice I made reservations 9 months in advance, and then 6 months later, I had to cancel due to circumstances beyond my control. It really PO'ed me to pay a 40 or 50% cancellation fee. Clearly, I wasn't trying to "game" the system. I guess it was just a situation where a rule meant to punish the guilty also punished the innocent. But I still don't like it.

around here, especially the beach campgounds
the only way an overnighter will find a space is if somebody has too suddenly leave just as the overnighter is arriving

the cancels and no show, go for first come, first served around noon
you arrive in the morning, and put your name on the list and 'hope' a site opens up, if it don't, your lucky if there is an overflow field, and if not, you get on the road

We've been "victims" of open sites that are reserved at some campgrounds over the years, with no occupant and no ability for the campground to 'sell the site' ... or anyone to occupy it when no one arrives, even a day or more late.

We find that mostly in NP and SP campgrounds due to the reservation policy. Most times, in our discussions we find the folks that made the reservation simply don't show up, rather than pay a minimal cancel fee, and the hassle of even getting thru to do it ... some say (RA ?) the fee is more than the no show fee (I'm not sure about this exactly - just chat talk)

That's bad news for those of us that don't like the hassle of such a tight schedule. One way, at least, for the reservation system to work better for everyone is to make the no-show fee hurt the wallet a little more.

Basically, we here on RV.net understand the gaming of the system and the results of that lack of responsibility to other campers, and to the campgrounds we all enjoy.

To those of you that think just because you paid you own it, and can do whatever you want .. I'm glad I don't know you and hope we never meet, because that's about a selfish a position as you can have - and we'd never become friends. A simple call directly to the park, releasing that site would both help a overnight camper, AND help the park itself, and only take a minute.

So the deposit on a reservation made 6 months in advance will have to be 40 percent of the total stay and be non refundable, otherwise there will be no way for the state to collect. Yet another park agreeing with my position that the only way to discourage cancellations is to make the cancellation fees high.

As demand exceeds supply in some cases, we just have to accept the cancellation policies and limitations. As far as just leaving the reservation in place unused rather than cancelling, consider the traveler that is able to use an overnight spot as they pass through because of a last minute cancellation. If you're too late to get a refund and someone else can use the site at the last minute, the park benefits from a little bit of extra revenue. Generally, state parks and federal parks can use any extra revenue they get!