"Long boondockers" leave trash; forests restricted

profdant139 wrote:
This is upsetting -- trash from essentially homeless boondockers is causing the national forests to restrict camping:

Link to article

So I will once again float a very unpopular idea -- if we were to require all boondockers to buy annual passes, these freeloading lowlifes could be evicted by the rangers right away, for lack of a permit.

I know no one wants to pay another fee. I know this proposal has no chance of being enacted. But I do not have any other plausible solution to this problem.

And if we don't figure out a way to stop this, boondocking will be a thing of the past. Simple: ban all boondockers, no trash.ban all boondockers, no trash.

If you have a better idea, I'm all ears!

I have no doubt that'll be the bureaucrats solution to the problem, but it won't solve anything. The reason they dump in remote areas is because it's REMOTE. The boodndockers aren't the problem, it's the slobs and the only way to combat that is to make the punishment worse than the crime. It'll take time and effort, but in the vast number of cases a bit of prowling through the mess can ID the culprits. Big fines and/or working at cleaning up their own and other's mess might get their attention. People who see this behavior also need to get involved in reporting and prosecuting these idiots.

Last spot I boon docked in I hauled out three bags of trash; paper, plastic, glass, spent brass and even a diaper!

They'd also been burning furniture, I couldn't take the metal parts with me but did my best to gather it all into one spot, hopefully someone wont' step on a rusty piece of steel while barefoot.

You can't fix poverty by making people buy passes.

Some people can't afford garbage service or to take their stuff to a legal dump. Some people are dealing with personal tragedies that are so extreme that they don't care. Some people have nowhere to go, so they have to camp in the woods.

Bringing back debtor's prisons is not the way to fix this. I understand the frustration and anger, but you're pointing it in the wrong direction.

Dan ... I agree completely that something needs to be done to control this!

A somewhat expensive annual pass or permit to "boondock" may help ... but that still means there must be enough officers/rangers available to do the checking for them and then enforce non-compliance.

IMHO, this happening is one indication of what I call "the general lowering of the standard of living" in the U.S. Sloppy and inconsiderate RV living in the wild is becoming a U.S. form of the shanty towns found all over the world. I fully accept that larger and larger groups of citizens may be having tougher economic times in their lifes and the DW and myself have helped some of them out over the years ... but this does not excuse their I-could-care-less attitude towards all things they view as "public property". They are just plain steeling from the rest of us with this behavior.

However, any means used to control these behaviors may wind up backfiring and getting the rest of us being labeled, politically, as "elitists". Given that possible eventual outcome, the rest of us who can either barely or easily afford it - will have to pay to camp in private areas where the campsite spacings are such that RV campers "feel like" they are out in the middle of nowhere boondocking. I was just reading today about some private ranches that offer this kind of experiene for RV campers - very expensive - and I sure hope that this is not what it's coming to for us boondock loving RV'ers - if the U.S. doesn't get it's act together enough to again develop a strong middle class with a return to offering better opportunities for all so that all develop respect for ... and identify with ... "their public places".

Naio wrote:
You can't fix poverty by making people buy passes.

Some people can't afford garbage service or to take their stuff to a legal dump. Some people are dealing with personal tragedies that are so extreme that they don't care. Some people have nowhere to go, so they have to camp in the woods.

Bringing back debtor's prisons is not the way to fix this. I understand the frustration and anger, but you're pointing it in the wrong direction.

While I agree with your premise there still have to be repercussions for unacceptable and illegal behavior. I believe that working off those repercussions is a fair penalty. Throwing up our hands up is no solution.
RichH

It's not that hard, just enforce the litter laws. The same ranger who could ask for a permit can cite for littering.

We live in a throwaway' society. The stuff we throw away has to go somewhere. Unfortunately it ends up in the wrong places, like forests and oceans.
Maybe it's time to bring back the Civilian Conservation Corps or a similar program. ;)

Frequently a Ranger or any LEO who wishes can improve compliance with a simple rule such as littering or dumping by just showing presence of mind. If they see folks camped in an area make a show of noting the vehicle location and license plate #, Most people involved in minor infractions dont want the hassle of dealing with a ticket and if they think they could get one, the simplest way is to eliminate the likelihood by eliminating the offensive activity. Once in a while they may get asked why they are taking the information down and the answer is as simple as "if your not around, out hiking or something, and I dont see you for a few days, we know to start looking for you."
It wont fix all of the problems but simple fixes like this can help with many.

No, I don't want our forests crapped up, but the last thing we need is another law. I think legislators should be lauded for getting rid of unnecessary laws instead of passing still more to add to the pile.

If the rangers enforced the rules already on the books then the problem would be minimized
For example the Tonto national forest and most federal lands have a stay limit.
The Bermuda flats area of the Tonto national forest has rigs that have not been moved in a long long time. Some have semi-permanent structures. If the rangers made people move out of the forest after 21 days then the problem is lessened.