thanks

pumapal809 wrote:
Thank you for your input. It's not what I'd hoped to hear but there's much to be said for wisdom gained through experience.

I have rebuilt two TTs, gutted the current one down to the bare studs.. Put in 1 inch PolyIso insulation (r-7) and added an extra 1/4" think closed cell foam (r-1) with a 1/4" gap between for a air break (air gap creates a pocket of dead air space which adds another r- .5).. So all told I have about R-8.5 which is about as good as it gets with walls that are only 1 1/2" thick..

It is not even close to a sticks and bricks for insulation and you can tell..

The PolyIso is not cheap ($20 per 4x8 sheet at the time, it is now around $28 per sheet) and it took a lot of time cutting and fitting..

I am not a winter camper, more like a "fair weather" camper and tend to camp only in the summer.. High heat and humidity does get to me so I was trying to squeeze as much insulation as possible into mine to help the A/C as much as possible.

Winter camping presents a lot of additional challenges, there ARE folks who love to winter camp but it takes a lot more preparation than insulation.. You have a lot of logistics with how you deal with staying warm and then add on top of that dealing with your water systems and keeping all of that from freezing..

Seems to be a lot of work to me but there are folks who don't mind it.. Many of those folks are not camping in the winter to save paying apartment rent, they are doing for recreational purposes..

I would think that to save money you would really have to find a very cheap campground that IS open during the winter (most northern states campgrounds tend to close for winter), that campground would have to have a non metered electric hookup (you would have to use a lot of electric space heaters to minimize propane usage).. Keeping in mind that many public campgrounds tend to cost $20-$80 PER NIGHT which would be $600-$2400 PER MONTH..

At $600 per month that is starting to get close to a small apartment rent.. Then consider the cost to retrofit your TT with more insulation and how much propane you will burn and how much time you want to use for things like frozen water, dumping tanks and such..

Without gutting the trailer and replacing the windows, or, as GDE says, ledgering in additional space in walls and ceiling, it's nigh impossible to make a TT into an efficient space to heat. I did my best by gutting out and filling every cavity with as much extruded foam as possible, used thermal breaks on all the framing, changed the furnace to a more efficient heater, have plumbing runs all inside the structure, but.....it is still going to be costly to heat through a Winter if electrical heaters can't be used on an "inluded with rent" situation.

FWIW, a few years back I was contemplating a move to Western ND to work in the oil patch. After estimating costs, I found out it was cheaper to rent a space in a heated RV garage, about $1000/mo. In most areas of the US, an apartment could be had for less.

Yes, one can remove the factory underbelly Material, remove factory fibreglass batt insulation and replace with contractor grade Closed Cell Spray Foam. Can do the same upgrade for its side walls, ends walls and its under roof cavity area as well. Lots of manual work to remove factory layer items, protect areas from over spray, hire mobile Spray Faom contractor, then re-assemble. Lots of work.

If wondering, I did this Spray Foam upgrade to my previous seasonal site TT's underbelly. re: - click here for picture -

Would I do it again? Without hesitation. Is it financially worth it? No. But, the contractor grade spray foam at 3"-4" thick under its floor dramatically removed floor bounce.

Hope this helps.

Not accepting PMs?

Bill

pumapal809 wrote:
there's much to be said for wisdom gained through experience.

Ain't that the truth! :B

Thank you for your input. It's not what I'd hoped to hear but there's much to be said for wisdom gained through experience.

pumapal809 wrote:
I have a "dream" to convert my 2009 travel trailer into a 4 season residence. I have been told it is impossible by camper dealerships and even those who build tiny homes, which is where my inspiration came from. I looked up the specs on the manufacturer's website and my style camper has R7insulation which I read is minimal and why it won't hold up to winter living. I lived (in a regular house)in southeast MO and now in northern TN. With the cost of housing and all that goes with that, camper living is very appealing to me economically. Granted I could pull up and move further south for the winter but I don't know that I want to do that. I questioned several camper knowledgeable persons about coating the underside with spray on insulation but was told it still wouldn't prevent freezing of pipes and holding tanks. Someone help me understand why. I read about people who renovate campers and since this one is in real great shape I don't want to gut it, I just want to insulate it well. Anyone have any ideas or experiences in this area? Thank you.

Not gonna happen and especially if your goal is being cheap.

Spray on foam is very expensive and needs to be protected from UV and not to mention if you ever NEED to access any of the pipes, plumbing, tanks you will be swearing so bad it will make a sailor to several shades of red..

Spray in insulation is so darned sticky when sprayed in, it sticks to pretty much every substance known to man.. Most likely would stick to teflon if you tried it.. Once set it can be very difficult to remove.

Spray on insulation is not cheap at all, for just the underside alone you could be talking $1K or more..

To increase the R value you would also need to lose room INSIDE the trailer since you would have to fir in the walls at least 3" in oder to get the equivalent of a 2x4 which would only give you R13 at best.. Firing OUTSIDE is not much of an option since it would most likely exceed 8' 6" width (the legal max without a special permit).

Then you would need to fir the roof UP at least 1'which would get you perhaps an additional R21..

All told you can sink $4K-$6K into insulation mods and you have not addressed the worst offenders.. DOORS AND WINDOWS..

Yep, Doors and windows in RVs are basically R1-R2 at best, double pane RV windows are available but you will be looking at $500-$1K PER WINDOW! And doors, not happening with RV doors, you are plain out of luck there..

The end result will be very expensive and STILL BE COLD in the winter..

You are NOT going to live "cheaper" in a RV whether it is a three or four season or even a super highly insulated modded RV..

Cold winds get under the trailer and will simply chill everything even if you had 20" of insulation.. I fought that battle in a MOBILE HOME which is better suited for winter living.. The floor ALWAYS WAS COLD, I ALWAYS FELT THE COLD creeping up even with my feet up off the floor.. I ALWAYS FOUGHT freezing water lines..

Even if it is well insulated you can easily burn through a 30lb propane tank in two days.. At $25 for 30 lb tanks that is $375 per month just to heat 400 square feet!.. And that would only if you kept the temp set to 50 degrees.

I can easily heat my 1200 square foot sticks and bricks for under $200 per month on natural gas and that is with the temp set to 73 degrees.

Save yourself from a money pit and run.

You could have the bottom spray foamed with a high quality foam but the roof and mostly the walls and windows will still be very poorly insulated.
I don't think you can make a common trailer like yours or mine supper comfortable during a cold winter.
My in-laws spent the winter in theirs and tried to heat it. It always had hot and cold area's and the windows and even some of the walls were covered condensation. (which promote mold). It was not very nice.
If you really want to do this then I suggest a new, better insulated trailer.