So it's been almost 3 weeks since we totaled our truck and fifth wheel. We were an hour from home enroute to Florida from Hamilton, Ontario when we hit black ice, lost control, went down an embankment and ended up jackknifed but upright in the ditch against a row of small trees. Thea and I were shook up but totally unscathed and we are grateful to God for his protection. The highway seemed good although it looked maybe slightly wet. It was eight am, i was doing about 105 kph(65 mph) and the temperature was -10 C(14 Fah) We later found out that about 10 km ahead of us was another truck and fifth wheel in the ditch.My purpose for this post is two fold.First as a warning to other campers as it was only the two fifth wheels in the ditch.Secondly I'd like opinions as to what I could have done differently.One thing for sure, if the road is even remotely suspect, I will slow right down.Will applying the trailer brake manually help to straighten the rig out?Will having the truck in 4 wheel drive help? I have always been under the impression that 4 wheel drive is harmful to the drive train on dry pavement. Would it be damaging on a straight highway if black ice is possible?Would appreciate feedback. We have bought another trailer and are in the process of buying another truck. So not giving up on rving yet. Still hope to get to Florida this winter.

I am so glad that you two were not injured- that is the most important. Secondly, I am glad you are not quitting RVing because of this terrible incident.You asked what you could have done differently. The first thing I will say is to slow down. 105 km or 65 mph is quite fast under the best of circumstances. Pulling a trailer on roads that have been wet with snow and when the temperatures are below freezing is a recipe for the disaster you experienced. I think 75 km or 45 mph to 90 km or 55 mph would be more appropriate.Would lower speed have avoided the accident? No way to know. However, lower speed would certainly avoided higher impact forces in any accident.

harry and thea wrote:Will applying the trailer brake manually help to straighten the rig out?Will having the truck in 4 wheel drive help? I have always been under the impression that 4 wheel drive is harmful to the drive train on dry pavement. Would it be damaging on a straight highway if black ice is possible?Would appreciate feedback. We have bought another trailer and are in the process of buying another truck. So not giving up on rving yet. Still hope to get to Florida this winter.Once sliding on ice, I don't think trailer brake will help, but will probably make things worse. If the ice was that bad, any brake input would start the skidding that won't stop until you find traction.Yes to 4wd. You are correct in possible damage on dry pavement, but rolling straight is fine and you'll get enough minor slip in wheels at highway radii to not worry about damage, especially if the road is wet. I, at those temperatures with wet looking pavement will run in 4wd and take it out if pavement is dry or getting off highway where sharper turns will occur. You will feel the driveline binding in the steering before damage occurs, mostly with harder steering input required or the wheel fighting you.As you said, the good part is that you were both ok!!

4 wheel drive can be used at any time, on any road conditions, whether the conditions warrant it's use or not. No damage or harm will come to the vehicle for using 4 wheel drive, ever. I have learned that when using 4 wheel drive, it just feel more comfortable to run slower.I have seen way too many campers and tow vehicles (of all sorts), flying down the road at some astonishing speeds. Even under best conditions, I rarely (if ever) go over 60 mph. I think speed is a big factor. Pushing behind the tow vehicle is another 6,000-15,000 pounds pushing forward, and pulling backwards. Far too often we forget that the shear force of the camper in motion is enough to propel the tow vehicle into oblivion. Basically, too many just don't REALLY understand the potential danger, or they think such things will never happen to them.Living in a snow state myself, I have learned, with trailer in tow or not, when the temperatures reach freezing, it's time to slow down. Even dew on the ground, or mist in the air can settle on a road when it's freezing temperatures and cause a layer of ice that may not even be noticed. Most autos will handle it with no problem. But it only takes one time to end up having a very bad day. Rule number 1, and probably the only rule, when temperatures reach freezing, always assume the road has ice. This will instinctive cause you to drive different.There is the only mistake you made, you did not anticipate the ice. Once you lost control, no matter speed you were traveling, there's not a whole lot you can do on ice. You got out physically unscathed although you did loose truck and trailer. I think you handled it pretty good! Better you probably could not have done, except anticipate the ice and drive accordingly.

4 wheel drive can be used at any time, on any road conditions, whether the conditions warrant it's use or not. No damage or harm will come to the vehicle for using 4 wheel drive, ever. I have learned that when using 4 wheel drive, it just feel more comfortable to run slower.This is terrible advise. If the 4 wheel drive vehicle does not have a center differential, you can not operate it on dry roads. As you turn, the front left wheel and the rear right wheel will be traveling at much different speeds. If the tires don't break free of road traction, the transmission, universal joints, half-shafts, etc will experience serious abuse. You may lock the whole system up and not be able to shift out of 4WD. A very light weight Jeep or other 4WD vehicle will simply spin the rear tire. But a heavy tow vehicle, especially with the weight of a trailer on the rear axle and lots of torque and horse power will break something.Only vehicles with "Full Time" four wheel drive can be operated on dry surfaces in 4WD. These vehicles have some type of differential in the transfer case to allow such operation.

Never had an experience with the trailer on black ice but I do know what it is to lose a trailer due to weather conditions. In my case, a blowover. Glad you got away with no personal injury. We did also. Extremely lucky.I don't have years of experience driving in winter conditions but I have done more than a few Colorado ski trips. I70 in the winter will sure speed up your learning curve.When air temps & road temps may be iffy I keep a very close eye on the air temp & also whether water is misting or spraying off the tires of vehicles around me.

truck and trailer total loss due to black ice | Good Sam Community

58 Replies

richfaa
Explorer
Feb 06, 2016
That was a good post dieseltruckdriver. We never drive the rig in any kind of snow and ice now that we do not have to.Been there done that enough times. We once had the same experience as we stopped because vehicles were spinning off the road a few hundred feet in front of us we took a few steps forward and fell on our butt road dry were we stopped but black ice just a few feet in front of us.Yes v10superduty in should have said "you are most likely going for a ride." We coasted over black ice as we saw vehicles hit a bridge and went for a ride.We backed off in time held steady and coasted over the bridge. Black ice is common in Northern Ohio near Lake Erie.Most never know they are on black ice and drive as if normal road conditions a little brake or acceleration or turn of the steering wheel and they are off.We were lucky that we never saw miles of it. Oh once on my morning school bus route saw a deer come out of the woods hit the road and all four legs went out from under it.I had to drive through the deer.Black ice is nasty .It was my top fear when driving the bus.
v10superduty
Explorer
Feb 06, 2016
richfaa wrote:
jake2250 wrote:
richfaa wrote:
The term black ice in the United States is often incorrectly used to describe any type of ice that forms on roadways, even when standing water on roads turns to ice as the temperature falls below freezing. Correctly defined, black ice is formed on relatively dry roads, rendering it invisible to drivers. It occurs when in the textures present in all pavements very slightly below the top of the road surface contain water or moisture, thereby presenting a dry surface to tires until that water or moisture freezes and expands; drivers then find they are riding above the road surface on a honeycombed invisible sheet of ice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_ice

I did post that as it is apparent that most who posted do not know what black ice is or have ever encountered. 60 mph or 6 mph you will never see it and when you hit it you are going for a ride.

Agree with info in this post. Although this part is not accurate...
...(when you hit it you are going for a ride)...
There can be very short pieces of black ice such as in a shady area by trees or a high rockcut, or there can be miles of it on a straight road.
If you are in a turn or do an aggressive steering wheel movement you can lose it on a very short section of black ice before you can react/correct.
But you can drive for miles on it, if relatively straight and no sudden wheel actions.

Many years ago landed at Winnipeg airport at about 6:00 in morning from Mexico. Driving south at about 30F as sun coming up. These prairie roads are straight for up to 100 miles in spots.
Nature called and I put on brakes gently to pull over, my brakes seemed frozen or something and were not really working, so basically coasted over and when got out of truck could barely stand up.
The rising sun had put enough heat in the dry pavement to bring frost out which was immediately a thin layer of invisible ice for miles and miles.
Continued home about 10 MPH slower and very gentle smooth wheel actions with no problems.

What I do now, even when we came south this Dec is this..
Tell the DW, "brake check" then on a perfectly straight section with no other vehicles around, do an aggressive brake application. It either slows down quick (good) or the anti-locks start ratcheting (bad). Now I know.
You have to be experienced and confident enough that you can control situation if you get wiggly here ;)

I would 100% state that lots of folks have unknowingly driven on black ice, incident free, because they are smooth on the wheel, accelorater, and brake pedal; and road was straight at that point.
cmcdar
Explorer
Feb 06, 2016
Some of this advise is just disastrous!

If you are from Hamilton Ontario, you should know all about driving with icy roads. You should avoid it whenever possible. If you are skidding on ice, NEVER step on the brakes and NEVER step on the gas. It is all about steering into the skid.

I am from Upstate New York and brought my camper to Florida this winter. I was not going to be leaving NY until January and did NOT want to take chances with winter road conditions so I looked for an affordable storage facility that I could park it in until January.

I found a storage facility in Kentucky that charged $1. per linear foot per month. So the first weekend in November I towed the camper down to Kentucky, gave them $40. to store it for two months. The folks were so nice, they said that when we arrive to pick it up in January, we were welcome to stay overnight in it right there so we could take our time getting it hooked up and stocked for the road.

The nice thing about this was also, if the weather was still bad when we were heading home, we had the option of dropping it off and returning once spring had sprung.

FORTY DOLLARS for that big hunk of peace of mind!
dapperdan
Explorer
Feb 06, 2016
I just did a search on You Tube for "black ice", here's what popped up. Almost eight minutes of "thrills and spills". Nobody got hurt in the filming of this movie. :B

Dan
dapperdan
Explorer
Feb 06, 2016
dieseltruckdriver wrote:
There were exactly 7 posts from people who knew what the OP had to deal with. Too many people will say "black ice" if a road has ice, or is slippery. I drove big trucks for 17 years, and hit black ice twice. You will not know it until it is too late. The post about watching the spray off the tires was some of the best advice that has been given. Most replies were from people that were off topic, or just clueless.

The first time I hit it, I was going slow, but my steering wheel didn't work. I thought I had mechanical problems, and when I stopped, I got out of the truck and fell on my rear. I could not tell there was ice on the road. I was never so happy to have a dry fifth wheel plate!

The second time, I noticed no spray off my tires, and pulled off the road, but didn't fall down because I was expecting it.

OP, I am glad you didn't get injured, but there was nothing you could have done.

You are so RIGHT!!! All this banter about four wheel drive, front axel ratio to back axel ratios, it's all MOOT!! Once you hit black ice you had better be moving slow or bad things are going to happen! Been there, done that like you. Obviously a lot of these people think they know what driving on black ice is all about. Hopefully they never have to experience it!!

Dan
laknox
Nomad
Feb 06, 2016
Cdash wrote:
laknox wrote:
GoPackGo wrote:
This is copied directly from my 2013 F350 owner's manual -

"Note: Do not use 4X4 mode on dry, hard surfaced roads. Doing so will
produce excessive noise, increase tire wear and may damage drive
components. 4X4 mode is only intended for consistently slippery or loose
surfaces."

I believe that GM, Ford, Ram full size trucks all have part time 4x4 and NOT AWD systems. I suspect that both of the other owner's manuals state something close to what is in my Ford's.

These systems should be engaged only when the surface provides some sort of 'slip'. It doesn't matter if it's 4x4 high or low. 4x4 low is just different gearing.

Beg to differ about 4LO. 4LO locks the front differential and transfer case, as well as reducing the gearing, making in extremely hard to steer, but giving you power to all 4 wheels at the same time.

Lyle

I beg to differ with your beg to differ.

The difference from 4 high to 4 low is only gearing in the transfer case. Many transfer cases are 1:1 (input to output) in high and between 2:1 and 3:1 in low. Very few vehicles have a locking front differential, and those that I know of that do, are not automatically activated by shifting into low. The are activated by separate means.

My Jeep Rubicon for instance, has locking front and rear differentials that are activated by an electrical switch and will only activate if the vehicle is in 4 low. But Rubicons are a small subset of the entire Jeep Wrangler line.

That said, I am pretty sure that none of the vehicles that would be towing a fifth wheel would have a factory front locking differential.

Well, my '02 D'max/Allie locks the transfer case, no problem. Nearly impossible to steer, but creeps great. Same with my '99 Chevy 1/2 Z51. My brother's old '80 Chevy was the same way, though with manual lockers and shift. :h

Lyle
dieseltruckdriv
Explorer II
Feb 06, 2016
There were exactly 7 posts from people who knew what the OP had to deal with. Too many people will say "black ice" if a road has ice, or is slippery. I drove big trucks for 17 years, and hit black ice twice. You will not know it until it is too late. The post about watching the spray off the tires was some of the best advice that has been given. Most replies were from people that were off topic, or just clueless.

The first time I hit it, I was going slow, but my steering wheel didn't work. I thought I had mechanical problems, and when I stopped, I got out of the truck and fell on my rear. I could not tell there was ice on the road. I was never so happy to have a dry fifth wheel plate!

The second time, I noticed no spray off my tires, and pulled off the road, but didn't fall down because I was expecting it.

OP, I am glad you didn't get injured, but there was nothing you could have done.
richfaa
Explorer
Feb 06, 2016
jake2250 wrote:
richfaa wrote:
The term black ice in the United States is often incorrectly used to describe any type of ice that forms on roadways, even when standing water on roads turns to ice as the temperature falls below freezing. Correctly defined, black ice is formed on relatively dry roads, rendering it invisible to drivers. It occurs when in the textures present in all pavements very slightly below the top of the road surface contain water or moisture, thereby presenting a dry surface to tires until that water or moisture freezes and expands; drivers then find they are riding above the road surface on a honeycombed invisible sheet of ice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_ice

I did post that as it is apparent that most who posted do not know what black ice is or have ever encountered. 60 mph or 6 mph you will never see it and when you hit it you are going for a ride.
jake2250
Explorer
Feb 05, 2016
richfaa wrote:
The term black ice in the United States is often incorrectly used to describe any type of ice that forms on roadways, even when standing water on roads turns to ice as the temperature falls below freezing. Correctly defined, black ice is formed on relatively dry roads, rendering it invisible to drivers. It occurs when in the textures present in all pavements very slightly below the top of the road surface contain water or moisture, thereby presenting a dry surface to tires until that water or moisture freezes and expands; drivers then find they are riding above the road surface on a honeycombed invisible sheet of ice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_ice
richfaa
Explorer
Feb 05, 2016
The term black ice in the United States is often incorrectly used to describe any type of ice that forms on roadways, even when standing water on roads turns to ice as the temperature falls below freezing. Correctly defined, black ice is formed on relatively dry roads, rendering it invisible to drivers. It occurs when in the textures present in all pavements very slightly below the top of the road surface contain water or moisture, thereby presenting a dry surface to tires until that water or moisture freezes and expands; drivers then find they are riding above the road surface on a honeycombed invisible sheet of ice.