Why doesn't the math work?

Abby Normal wrote:
I have received a lot of education from this forum, but I am back with another question. I have learned that my TV payload is 10,000 lbs. and that the GCWR is 23,500 lbs. The TV with passengers and EXTREMELY LITTLE cargo is 8280 lbs. This leaves 15,220 lbs. for trailer, hitch, and cargo. If I allow 300 lbs. for the hitch and 1200 lbs. for cargo, I have 13,720 lbs. for trailer, right? Not so fast. If the TV only carries 10,000 lbs. and we weigh 8280, we only have 1720 lbs. left for pin weight. What about the weight of the hitch? If the hitch weighs 300 lbs. we now only have 1420 lbs. left for pin weight. Why do manufacturers sell units as 1/2 ton towable when I can't get the math to work for our F-250 diesel?

Abby,

I feel your pain. I ordered a 2017 F-350 SRW 4x4 diesel (11,500 payload) with the long bed to haul a 5er. The Ford and 5er salesmen both assured us that the SRW would haul it with no problems. Ford had not yet published the numbers for 2017 so I relied on them. Now the numbers have come out and find that I can haul the 5er so long as I leave my dog home and carry nothing in the truck except one bottle of water for the two of us to share, (and that's a maybe because the actual weight of the truck with accessories isn't known yet.) Today I cancelled the order and ordered a 2017 F-350 DRW 4x4 diesel (14,000 payload; GCWR 36,000; 5er max tow 27,900; Rear GAWR 9,900). My 5er has a GVWR of 16,830, an UVW or 13,545 and unloaded pin weight of 2245 (16.6%) which should translate to a properly loaded pin weight of 2790. The DRW numbers work MUCH better. If my pin weight is higher, I have lots of spare payload.

So I will give you a hint to answer your question: "Why do manufacturers sell units as 1/2 ton towable when I can't get the math to work for our F-250 diesel?"

Hint: It is green and has numbers in the corners.

They can sell more expensive units if the buyer doesn't have to lay out a lot more for a bigger TV.

The lesson I learned from this is if you have your eye on a particular TV, set your TV numbers up in a spreadsheet. Then you can punch in the TT/5er values on the RV lot. And then have it weighed.

Wayne from Maine
2017 F-350SC, 6.7l PSD, 4x4 long bed DRW (To be delivered)
2006 Carriage Carri-Lite 36KSQ

fivernoob wrote:
I asked the very same question just this weekend. If you go by the numbers, the only truck that would be truly capable of towing a fiver would be 1-tons and up. 3/4-tons would be barely able to tow the very lightest fivers. Being a science guy, going only by payload and gcwr just doesn't add up. Unless you want to tow a heavy TT then the numbers make some sense.

I have been towing my '05 32' Montana with my '04 Dodge with a 9k max gvw for the last 11 years. I have been across scales with every thing and persons on board for a two week or more trip and have never exceeded any manuf. limits of my truck. So in my case your theory does not fly. JME.

fivernoob wrote:
I asked the very same question just this weekend. If you go by the numbers, the only truck that would be truly capable of towing a fiver would be 1-tons and up. 3/4-tons would be barely able to tow the very lightest fivers. Being a science guy, going only by payload and gcwr just doesn't add up. Unless you want to tow a heavy TT then the numbers make some sense.

That is exactly why I re-thought buying a F250 and a instead bought the F350.

Wayne from Maine

Michelle.S wrote:
Just be careful with the GCWR, in some states that is the max that DMV will allow you to license for, so it then becomes a Legal Binding number if you were to get scaled.

Probably true for a state that has such a requirement for licensing or title registration purposes ...however in a state like mine we have no weight for licensing or registration for a gcwr/gvw/etc nor will my state scale a non commercial vehicle for a gcwr. Its simply not on the books.

Commercial combo ...yes
Non commercial combo ....no

Just be careful with the GCWR, in some states that is the max that DMV will allow you to license for, so it then becomes a Legal Binding number if you were to get scaled.

I asked the very same question just this weekend. If you go by the numbers, the only truck that would be truly capable of towing a fiver would be 1-tons and up. 3/4-tons would be barely able to tow the very lightest fivers. Being a science guy, going only by payload and gcwr just doesn't add up. Unless you want to tow a heavy TT then the numbers make some sense.

I admit I'm a newbie who is just buying a 1st ever 5er, but I've been wrestling with the same issues so I'll give this a shot.

GVWR of the TV refers to the maximum allowable weight of the TV. That is dry weight plus everything you put in it-fuel, spouse, Doritos, etc. At 8700 you are under 10,000 so you are ok. When you have the 5er hooked on you add the pin weight. That leaves you 1300 for pin weight. Your 5er pin weight is probably 20-25% you projected actual weight of 14,800, or 2960 to 3700 of 14800. If you load 5er to max it will be 3020 to 3775. As I understand it you will be way over.

A trucks actual GVWR can be the sum of its axle/tire load ratings.

Example a F350 SRW can have a 7000 rawr and 5600 fawr = 12600 gvw.
Thats why the truck makers gvwr carries no legal meaning as far as how much load a particular truck may carry.

Ford markets the F350srw with a gvwr from 10000 lb up to 11500 lbs for the same exact truck. Just stay under any trucks axle/axle tire load ratings just to be safe.
Now if you choose to carry weight using the trucks gvwr that fine....its also safe to do so.

GCWR is the total allowable combined weight of the TV and 5er. At 8700 for TV that leaves you 14,800 for 5er. Again 15,100 is over unless you stay at 14,800 or less.

Another weight number that carries no legal meaning for roadside enforcement. There are no trucks on the road that carry a gcwr number on a certified placard nor is there a requirement for it.

Here is a video that help you match your truck to your RV


Matching your truck to your RV

Safety is critical when towing an RV Trailer. This training video discusses the importance of understanding a Truck's ratings and how these ratings limit the size of the trailer that can be safely towed. You will be provided the tools and basic understanding needed to assist your endeavor to properly match a truck and trailer, so that you can enjoy RVing safely.

For Education Purposes Only
Recreation Vehicle Safety & Education Foundation

Check out this site for stubby pencil weights.
Towing Planner

Abby Normal wrote:
"We weighed the truck with us in it and allowed an extra 170 lbs. for extras, and allowed 250 lbs. for a hitch to come up with our TV weight. We have a GCWR of 23,500 minus the loaded TV of 8,700, which leaves us a max loaded trailer weight of 14,800, not the 15,100 lbs. per the owners manual of the TV. This all sounds good until I get to the GVWR, which is only 10,000. If I only look at the axle rating I can get by with these numbers, but will definitely be over on GVWR. I know that I am still missing something. I desperately want to impress DH when I get it figured out!

I admit I'm a newbie who is just buying a 1st ever 5er, but I've been wrestling with the same issues so I'll give this a shot.

GVWR of the TV refers to the maximum allowable weight of the TV. That is dry weight plus everything you put in it-fuel, spouse, Doritos, etc. At 8700 you are under 10,000 so you are ok. When you have the 5er hooked on you add the pin weight. That leaves you 1300 for pin weight. Your 5er pin weight is probably 20-25% you projected actual weight of 14,800, or 2960 to 3700 of 14800. If you load 5er to max it will be 3020 to 3775. As I understand it you will be way over.

GCWR is the total allowable combined weight of the TV and 5er. At 8700 for TV that leaves you 14,800 for 5er. Again 15,100 is over unless you stay at 14,800 or less.

As I said, I am new at this. I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong. Indeed, I have the dealer weighing the used 5er I am looking at (both pin and total dry weight) to see if I can pull it with my 2017 F350 that will be delivered in 5-8 weeks. I think it will be close. I would be overjoyed at having more carrying capacity, but I think the numbers don't lie.

Wayne From Maine
Soon to have 2017 Ford F-350 Lariat SC 4x4 6.7 PSD
Shopping for 5er

nohurry wrote:

DavinD wrote:

MFL wrote:
Your truck is class 2 limited. This includes the 10,000 lb GVWR, even though it may have the same setup as the class 3 F350.

Your payload is figured from the weight it left the factory, subtracted from the class limit of 10K. In reality your truck has more capability than the numbers show.

Many just go by RAWR, when a FW is involved, as most all of the pin is carried by the rear axle.

Jerry

From Ford, for example, you can order a F350 with a 10,000 pound limit. Same truck, just a different sticker. This is to avoid higher taxes in some states.

Ding, Ding, Ding, we have a winner!

Abby, the reason your truck is "legally" 10,000 GVWR is because some states charge a fee for trucks over that weight. It's an option Ford gives us to avoid paying a tax. Your truck is more than capable of towing a fifth wheel. I would maybe install air bags to level it, as you don't have the overload spring the 350 does. Other than that it's the same truck as mine!!! You're not gambling at all. I guess you can tell I'm not the weight police, but look....All you out there towing fifth wheels with a 3/4 ton truck raise your hands.........See that! There are TONS (No pun intended), of folks happily doing it, and safely too. Your call of course, but believe me you'll be just fine not exceeding the tire, and overall combined ratings.

Now, this makes sense!!! No wonder the math wouldn't work for me. Thank you all again for all of your help!!