Older Doggies

BCSnob wrote:

rockhillmanor wrote:

About tumors. Talk with your vet. I was told by my vet that once you open up a tumor and/or aspirate it to check for cancer cells or to remove it it then spreads like wildfire.

I was curious and searched with google scholar using the terms: fine needle aspirate cancer seeding

As I expected, this technique was correlated to spreading cancer like a wildfire after a Nor'easter; can happen but very rare (the correlation has not been proven to be causation) and
localized to the needle tract in the rare

cases when it occurred.

Don't take my word or Rock's look up the scientific literature yourself.

Choice is yours if you want to take the chance with your pet. I don't.

When researching this for 'my' dog I was working with UMW who's team of doctors pointed out these facts to me to assist me in my decisions.

Perhaps maybe I should not have used the word wildfire for those that feel the need to take it sooo literally.:R All I know is the team of doctors at the University told me that aspiration does open up clear documented possibilities for spreading and that includes opening up for surgery also whether all the tumor is deemed removed.

AND yes human hospitals do use a sealed type {laymens term)of procedure when extracting cancerous tumors that the veterinary industry does not use. I was informed of this it by qualified professionals at two different Universities. And NO I am not going to spend the day looking up a link for anyone to prove it.

Our dogs don't live as long as humans. Do we allow them to live the short lives they already have 'with' a tumor or shorten it up in half by increasing the chance that it did spread by aspiration etc.?

Just saying the more you ask questions and research the more you will find out to help you make an appropriate decision for your own pets health.

No one can tell you what to do with 'your' pet based on what they did with 'their' pet. But one CAN take the additional information offered you may not be aware of to further assist you in a decision and/or discuss with your vet. :C

Rarely do medical procedures have non-zero risks of side effects; medical (and pharmaceutical) professionals these days are disclosing every possibly side effect making it more difficult to filter down to those that we should be concerned about. It does not help when someone posts these rare side effects associated with the terms "spreads like wildfire". I doubt the medical professionals that related this side effect to you used these terms to describe the likely risks of "seeding cancerous cells" during a fine needle aspiration. Perhaps in the future you should provide better context for risks associated with procedures, pharmaceuticals, etc; of course that would not be as sensational or provocative.

**********************************************************************
So for context; here is a literature review indicating a non-zero risk:

"Needle track seeding following biopsy of liver lesions in the diagnosis of hepatocellular cancer: a systematic review and meta-analysis"
http://gut.bmj.com/content/57/11/1592.short

Results: Eight studies identified by systematic review on biopsy of HCC were included in a meta-analysis. The pooled estimate of a patient with seeding per 100 patients with HCC was 0.027 (95% confidence interval (CI) 0.018 to 0.040). There was no difference whether a fixed or random effects model was used. Q was 4.802 with 7 degrees of freedom, p?=?0.684; thus the observed heterogeneity was compatible with variation by chance alone. The pooled estimate of a patient with seeding per 100 patients per year was 0.009 (95% CI 0.006 to 0.013), p?=?0.686.


There are additional studies on other cancerous tumors with different risks; all the ones I found during a cursory review of scientific literature were non-zero and very low like in this report.

AND yes human hospitals do use a sealed type {laymens term)of procedure when extracting cancerous tumors that the veterinary industry does not use. I was informed of this it by qualified professionals at two different Universities.

If your are talking about the sterile adhesive drape commonly used in human medicine, you are correct that it isn't commonly used in veterinary surgery. BUT it has nothing to do with air coming in contact with tumors, just general infection control during surgery.

Fortunately, aside from horses, the species we do surgery on are not terribly susceptible to tetanus and peritonitis.

Imagine the costs of elective surgery if we instituted those procedures when not entirely necessary.

My point was that the assertion that exposing tumors to air leads to more tumors, worse tumors, metastasis is just wrong.

Ok guys....calm down. Our girl is home after having 13 teeth removed(yes, I know a lot) but as indicated earlier, Cav's are very bad when it comes to teeth. The vet felt that it was necessary and important to get her mouth cleaned up...6 of those 13 teeth were falling out. She's very tired now and resting. So we will keep her comfy and quiet and go from there! Thanks everyone.

Oh, the tumor was left intact!

Great to hear!! She should be back to normal pretty quick.

Our Duncan is a cavalier. He has a slight murmur but also a more serious neuro issue. We thought his teeth were perfect until the vet did his dental. He's lost 14 teeth so far. It apparently is the nature of the breed.

Trust the vet. You don't want infection going systemic. Duncan had an infected molar and I never knew until the exam. I felt horrible.

Another thing I haven't read in this thread is something one vet told us. That the dog toothpaste has enzymes in it that help break down tartar and food residue. Even if you don't vigorously brush the dog's teeth, if you at least get the toothpaste on their teeth when they are through eating for the day, the enzymes will do their work. This has worked out well here. Darcy will come and give me "the look" if I forget to do her teeth. :)