Raw food diets

Thank you, Dr Doug, for sharing valuable information for all of us!!!!

Actually, BARF diets are meant to include organ meats.

I do meat raw, veggies pureed and cooked. Meat (and bone) are more bioavailable raw, veggies need breaking down for dogs or cats to get much out of them besides bulk.

There is fiber, and there is fiber. Such a thing as enough (enough bulk in the stool, a full enough dog) and such a thing as too much. When I started BARF I gave whole grains and got huge stools and mucus. Removing grains removed huge stools and mucus. These days I am doing sweet potatoes/white rice or sweet potatoes/oats for a calorie/carb source to reduce the load on the planet of feeding meat and to reduce cost. No huge stools. No mucus. Good regularity. Firm stools. Happy dogs.

Will add taurine.

Flax not best source for efa's for dogs... not species appropriate. Can be added and help some, but fish oil makes more sense.

Poop pickup important and handwashing, regardless of food source. Interesting that "that" may be how dogs deal with salmonella. Makes a certain sense. I always wash dog and cat bowls separately and dry them that way.

Typing around large cat, in case you're wondering. Gotta go, killing elbow.

Altern wrote:
Interesting also is their opinions about the training of vets regarding diet.

And total BS commonly recirculated on the internet.

Couple of years ago, I addressed this bunk in a thread. If you are interested I'll give you my credentials.

PS I just spent 8 hours updating my information on nutrition from some of the leading authorities in the field (not by reading on the internet).

If I sound defensive, SORRY (not)

Altern wrote:
Comments from Leerburg

Interesting also is their opinions about the training of vets regarding diet.

a perfect example of opinions without facts

Just finished a day at the 150th AVMA (American Veterinary Medical Assoc.) convention here in Chicago. This is one of the biggest CE meeting that vets have.

I thought I’d share some information gleaned from a day of up to date information from some of the top people involved in pet nutrition (Dr. Andrea Fascetti UC-Davis and Dr. Jennifer Larsen U of Cal.)

RE: grain free

Grain allergies are not common and certainly less common than meat protein allergy.

Many grain free foods substitute carbohydrate sources that have a higher glycemic index (potato, tapioca) than the corn, wheat, rice that has been removed, thus negating perceived benefit.
Dogs and cats are able to digest corn.

Grains are frequently referred to as filler. Grains provide a carbohydrate source, some protein, vitamins and minerals necessary in a complete diet (obviously not the only source available). They also provide a source of fiber (is this the filler??). Fiber is necessary for normal GI function in dogs and cats, and has been found to be beneficial in preventing colon cancer in people.

RE: Raw, BARF and homemade diets

There are NO long-term studies comparing these diets to commercial diets, and likely will not have any due to costs involved. The short term studies reveal some interesting information.

A huge majority of homemade, raw and BARF diets are deficient in one or more essential nutrients necessary for long term health.

An argument against commercial diets is they have been cooked, processes, etc. and that degrades the nutrition.

Cooking and processing DOES change nutritional value of foods. Sometimes it improves bioavailability (most plant source) while decreasing digestibility/nutritional value (meat source). These facts are taken into account in formulating the commercial extruded diet, therefore if manufactured correctly, they are complete nutritionally.

The blood levels of various chemistries show the only variations are mild increase in BUN and Creatinine in raw diets (probably not a good choice in renal compromised patients).

One exception was a diet that created hyperthyroid in dogs thought to be the result of thyroid tissue being included in the raw diet. The condition was corrected when the diet was changed to a commercial one.

One of the reasons given for feeding raw or BARF is that dental disease is reduced. In fact, multiple studies (Australia, Germany, Africa and California) showed some decrease in calculus and tartar but an equal incidence of periodontal disease (the reason for tooth loss). So you may perceive a benefit that is actually not there.

Taurine deficiencies are present frequently in these diets. This is a serious life threatening issue in cats and dogs.

The reasons have to do with composition, most of these diets avoid the dreaded “byproducts” that are in commercial foods.

Despite the emotional reaction many have to the idea of byproducts, they are extremely important in creating a complete diet and are actually a more representative of a “natural”, bio-appropriate diet.

It turns out that organs and non-human quality foods have much of the taurine that is necessary for dogs and cats while muscle meat is deficient. If you make a diet without these things, you likely will have a diet that is deficient in taurine.

There were diets that had adequate amounts of Taurine in the raw diet, but the animals had deficient blood levels. Theories exist (difference in gut flora reducing enterohepatic absorption) but we don’t know why for sure. You need to be very careful regarding minimum levels of taurine available.

RE salmonella and other GI pathogens:

Culturing of bowls and feces of those fed raw or BARF showed:

the bowls positive cultures for salmonella even with routine cleaning methods,

and a huge percentage of dogs shed GI pathogens.

This means that if you do choose to feed this way, you not only have to have appropriate food handling techniques, but REALLY clean bowls and take precautions picking up stools.

This doesn’t even address that little piece of poop that sticks to the hair or leaks around the rectum and gets on the carpeting, bed, your lap… just sayin’.

Final thing

Omega-3’s a good thing, Flax seed a very poor choice for Omega for dogs and cats.

ALA, DHA, EPA are the three we look for. It turns out dogs only metabolize about 5% of the ALA they ingest (the primary form in Flax and plant sources), therefore 95% is wasted. Cats are WORSE. When you supplement (or buy a food that has flax seed as source of omega) you need to find or use “marine” sources (fish oils and algal oils).

Bottom line: If you choose a homemade, raw or BARF diet, be aware of the risks and rewards. You should probably work with a veterinary nutritionist and not rely on diets published on the net.

This is just my opinion, but there's something to be said for a food coming from a large research facility. Ages ago, when I showed horses, one of the most beautiful roan horses I can remember was named Purf Bar Midge. Funny name - but the "purf" stood for "Purina Research Farm" - he had been raised by Purina :-) I'm sure there's dogs, cats, lambs etc that have been raised in a similar manner. I'm not saying a human can't duplicate the balance of vitamins and minerals that come in commercial dog food - but if you were to pay yourself for the time it takes to make a balanced raw diet, I think it's way easier/cheaper/faster... and apparently safer...to feed a good commercial kibble.

Comments from Leerburg

Interesting also is their opinions about the training of vets regarding diet.

Wait a minute, I have to go get some popcorn before the show begins!:W