Tiki goes to Florida

Chock Full o' Nuts

Thank you for taking my comments as they were intended. Here of late, it seems so many threads turn into personal attacks and others lashing back. Given that the tone of a conversation is sometimes lost in the keyboard, where intent would be clearer if it were an actual face to face conversation.

I applaud your efforts and it sounds like you have a realistic grip on the situation, in accepting that the possibility exists that it may not work out.

The hardest part of dealing with my Daisy was when the grandkids came along. The 3 oldest grandkids were 5, 7, and 10 when my son met their mother and they came into our lives. There were times the younger one would have liked to stay overnight, and I was concerned about doing it with Daisy in the house. We did manage it a few times, but I used a 6 foot leash and tethered her to my nightstand (the dog, not the kid LOL)

These kids weren't raised with dogs from little on up, before they came into our lives, so it made it more precarious in my mind, as I had no way of anticipating how the kids would react.

The youngest now is 9 and he has been brought up with dogs from little on up. He had a healthy respect for our "crazy Daisy". I had the opportunity to have him here on visits from little on up, and was able to "mold" him into knowing how to act properly around animals.

When I took Daisy to the vet, her muzzle always went with her, just as a precaution. I always told her she was along for the ride until the train got to the end of the track. That little dog worshipped the ground I walked on - never had a more devoted dog, and I could do anything with her. But no one else could ever even groom her.

I told the dog and the vet both, if anything bad happened, that was it. To have to hospitalize that little girl would have just freaked her out. And there's no doubt that she would not let vet techs handle her without me there. I just couldn't see putting the dog or the vet staff through it.

We had a good run, but even mixed in with the sorrow, there was a bit of relief at not having to be on my guard 24/7. I feel guilty even saying that, but it's the way it is.

Code2High wrote:
He sounds a lot like Pen, and I agree it is probably fear. I think some dogs.... and poodles do seem a bit prone to it, for one reason or another (could be wiring or the people that often end up with them to start with, or both I suppose), as do chis and I have one of those, too.

One thing that seems to be the case with both is that they've learned that sort of "ballistic response" to deal with situations that alarm them. They've done it before and it WORKS because eventually the thing that's "scary" to them backs up and goes away. So that becomes a default response and they have to learn A) not to do that and B) another way to cope with various situations that alarm them or learn not to be alarmed so much.

Can it be done? Tinker improved dramatically with me after I actually took the bite (it wasn't severe) and didn't back up. When that behavior didn't work, I stopped seeing so much of it. More exposure to people also helped a lot. Pen has improved a LOT but still has his moments, in particular because we've become a little pack of hermits since moving.

What I do when it happens.... and it happened on Saturday when my local Mormon missionary duo stopped by to say hello (hoping to play with the pitbull!) and I brought out the little brown beastie so he could get a little socialization time. He was too upset to respond well to treats and did the old "I'm going to bite you!" routine, whereupon he found himself flat on the concrete with me holding him by the cheek hair. And there he stayed while the humans chatted and waited until he relaxed. Then I let him up and he was a little dopey (like he'd just had a massage or reiki session) and very happy to have a few pieces of cracker and an ear rub.

Dead useful, those missionaries!

I realize that approach may not be practical for you, because from the sound of it dropping to ground level and staying there for however long it takes for Tiki to give it up may be more than you can handle physically (leaving out the question of some philosophical issue about putting the dog on the ground).

So I'll share the other thing that's worked really well and that I could've used but didn't on Saturday. Pen wears an e-collar, which I got to deal with his barking fits in the yard. I'd gone as far as I could with running out to correct him.... it was just never fast enough. So I bought the e-collar for that. What I discovered is that it makes a very fast and effective way to interrupt him when he gets belligerent with visitors in the house. He's part fearful and part territorial so that's more of an issue than out in public (he'll usually take treats when we're out and about and that convinces him that people are friendly). The e-collar allows me to control him a little less closely while knowing that if he issues a challenge I can stop him almost instantly. I can apply anything from a buzz or beep or a very small shock to something that will cut through any fit he can throw.

His initial introduction to the e-collar was stressful, but once he came to understand it, that faded and he's a calmer, happier and oddly more confident little dog with that as a part of his world. That may be in part because I'm a calmer happier and more confident human knowing that I've got a way to put a halt to bad behavior that doesn't depend on having direct physical control of him. I do "hear" a lot of worry/stress/anxiety in your comments about this dog that you're now attached to but worried about him biting. Unfortunately, that only aggravates the problem. And it's really hard not to be anxious.

There are other things you can do to produce a calmer Tiki over all, and that will reduce the tendency to react. Exercise as STRUCTURED walking (if you're not currently doing that) is very helpful. That means he just walks by your side and does not get to sniff or pee or do anything but follow until you say so. Nothing In Life Is Free can produce a more respectful and then calmer and more confident dog. Obedience training.... ditto. Teaching non-compatible behaviors (you can't do a long down and bark your fool head off) can also be helpful.

Pheremone collars can be a big help for some nervous dogs. Some will respond more strongly than others but they aren't expensive and it is definitely worth a try. There are anti-depressants you could try, or you could try a supplement such as l-tryptophan which is a mild anti-depressant, and/or sam-e which is also an anti-depressant. Rescue remedy in his water and in yours..... both helpful.

Speaking of SAM-e, one thing I have heard a lot about in rescue recently is liver issues and aggression. I think it's worth a blood test if you're going to talk to a vet.

As for what is "acceptable" or "not acceptable" clearly having a dog that threatens people's lives is not desirable, but let's be really clear... this dog is a rehab project and it's actually VERY early days in terms of that. You've had him for just a few weeks, and he's been exposed to a ton of new stuff. Nothing wrong with that, but right now you're finding out where he needs work. He's a long way from a "hopeless case" that needs to be killed. If he was a bigger dog that you couldn't physically control, things might indeed by different. But he isn't.

You do need to control his contacts with people, and one part of that is being clear with people. If you give people (such as Sis) clear guidance, it will help in many cases. Since you know that people looking directly at him and talking to him is apt to be just too much for him, it's a good idea to tell people clearly and calmly "Please don't look straight at him, and don't talk to him, he's being rehabbed and he's not ready for that yet." Once he can be calm around people who are ignoring him, a little more contact is worth a try. It's a process. He needs to form positive associations with meeting humans.

One thing I have done with feral kittens and had others do to good effect, is to spray my hands with pheremones. It can make a huge difference. I guess you can't run around everywhere hosing people down with DAP, but under some circumstances it might be helpful to apply it to hands, pant legs and so on.

If you do get to the point where you just feel like you're in over your heads and you don't have/can't acquire the skills to get the job done, then it may be possible to find someone in rescue who would have the chops to deal with his issues and get him civilized enough to be placed.

Thank you for this clear and thoughtful response. You've given me a measure of hope. My sister rescued a dog 2 years ago whose behavior was worse than Tiki's. That dog was extremely fearful and did a lot of growling and menacing in new situations. One year later, she was really a good dog and she has continued to be a good dog, though a little shy with strangers. As long as we all honor her boundaries, there's been no problems.

I have not been a fan of e-collars, but I may have to rethink that. I have not been walking him as much as he needs, due to the pain in my knees. However! I have been undergoing some shots to both knees (to replace add lubricant to the joints) and the benefits have been must greater than was predicted. I now have very little pain in the knees and can walk easily and go up and down steps. Time to get back out there and walk the damn dog! He does love his walks and I do not allow him to stop and sniff and pee everywhere. He is allowed two stops for sniff/pee--once at the beginning and once halfway through. Tiki walks very nicely on his gentle leader.

I am inclined to keep working with Tiki. Like you said, he's a little dog, only about 12-lb. so he's small enough to pick up and remove from a situation, if I need to. I try not to do that much because I don't want to reinforce the idea that "the world is scary and I must be on the offense." When people come up to him, I always let them know he is a rescue in training and not to come close. He is leashed 100% of the time when outside, even in our backyard, so I can control him. I haven't been quite as strict about stuff inside, other than he is only allowed upstairs with one of us. None of this free range business! He must sit when putting his leash on and taking it off. He is not food-driven at all, so sitting prior to feeding is a total waste--he could care less if he eats or not. He doesn't play with balls or toys either.

He's actually a smart little dog. I might even think about doing some agility training with him. He needs a J.O.B. in my opinion. Tiki does very well in the doggy daycare and did very well at my mother's house with her dog and the next door dogs. He doesn't even bark much when he's outside with the other dogs.

Thanks for letting me get all this off my chest. Sometimes talking it out, or in this case writing it out, gives me a clearer vision. I don't want to be hasty in my decisions. I hope very much that I can rehab this dog because he is so sweet, such a delight, except for this one behavior.

doxiemom11 wrote:
Some of the behavior sounds like the puppy mill rescue we had. Sometimes the way people were dressed (men in hats) (men wearing heavy work boots) and objects (shovels) and other things set her off. She was afraid. She had lived a horrible life and those things hurt her in the past. She did get much better, but is took a good year for her to learn that she could trust and that we wouldn't hurt her.
Curious -- how does he act when a phone rings, or a timer on a stove buzzes? Ours lived with an electronic bark collar that buzzed before it shocked her. At first she was terrified of those type of noises also.

He pays no attention to buzzers or phones. He will bark when the doorbell rings, but our last dog (a standard poodle) used to bark like a maniac when someone came to the door and he was not aggressive in the least.

He sounds a lot like Pen, and I agree it is probably fear. I think some dogs.... and poodles do seem a bit prone to it, for one reason or another (could be wiring or the people that often end up with them to start with, or both I suppose), as do chis and I have one of those, too.

One thing that seems to be the case with both is that they've learned that sort of "ballistic response" to deal with situations that alarm them. They've done it before and it WORKS because eventually the thing that's "scary" to them backs up and goes away. So that becomes a default response and they have to learn A) not to do that and B) another way to cope with various situations that alarm them or learn not to be alarmed so much.

Can it be done? Tinker improved dramatically with me after I actually took the bite (it wasn't severe) and didn't back up. When that behavior didn't work, I stopped seeing so much of it. More exposure to people also helped a lot. Pen has improved a LOT but still has his moments, in particular because we've become a little pack of hermits since moving.

What I do when it happens.... and it happened on Saturday when my local Mormon missionary duo stopped by to say hello (hoping to play with the pitbull!) and I brought out the little brown beastie so he could get a little socialization time. He was too upset to respond well to treats and did the old "I'm going to bite you!" routine, whereupon he found himself flat on the concrete with me holding him by the cheek hair. And there he stayed while the humans chatted and waited until he relaxed. Then I let him up and he was a little dopey (like he'd just had a massage or reiki session) and very happy to have a few pieces of cracker and an ear rub.

Dead useful, those missionaries!

I realize that approach may not be practical for you, because from the sound of it dropping to ground level and staying there for however long it takes for Tiki to give it up may be more than you can handle physically (leaving out the question of some philosophical issue about putting the dog on the ground).

So I'll share the other thing that's worked really well and that I could've used but didn't on Saturday. Pen wears an e-collar, which I got to deal with his barking fits in the yard. I'd gone as far as I could with running out to correct him.... it was just never fast enough. So I bought the e-collar for that. What I discovered is that it makes a very fast and effective way to interrupt him when he gets belligerent with visitors in the house. He's part fearful and part territorial so that's more of an issue than out in public (he'll usually take treats when we're out and about and that convinces him that people are friendly). The e-collar allows me to control him a little less closely while knowing that if he issues a challenge I can stop him almost instantly. I can apply anything from a buzz or beep or a very small shock to something that will cut through any fit he can throw.

His initial introduction to the e-collar was stressful, but once he came to understand it, that faded and he's a calmer, happier and oddly more confident little dog with that as a part of his world. That may be in part because I'm a calmer happier and more confident human knowing that I've got a way to put a halt to bad behavior that doesn't depend on having direct physical control of him. I do "hear" a lot of worry/stress/anxiety in your comments about this dog that you're now attached to but worried about him biting. Unfortunately, that only aggravates the problem. And it's really hard not to be anxious.

There are other things you can do to produce a calmer Tiki over all, and that will reduce the tendency to react. Exercise as STRUCTURED walking (if you're not currently doing that) is very helpful. That means he just walks by your side and does not get to sniff or pee or do anything but follow until you say so. Nothing In Life Is Free can produce a more respectful and then calmer and more confident dog. Obedience training.... ditto. Teaching non-compatible behaviors (you can't do a long down and bark your fool head off) can also be helpful.

Pheremone collars can be a big help for some nervous dogs. Some will respond more strongly than others but they aren't expensive and it is definitely worth a try. There are anti-depressants you could try, or you could try a supplement such as l-tryptophan which is a mild anti-depressant, and/or sam-e which is also an anti-depressant. Rescue remedy in his water and in yours..... both helpful.

Speaking of SAM-e, one thing I have heard a lot about in rescue recently is liver issues and aggression. I think it's worth a blood test if you're going to talk to a vet.

As for what is "acceptable" or "not acceptable" clearly having a dog that threatens people's lives is not desirable, but let's be really clear... this dog is a rehab project and it's actually VERY early days in terms of that. You've had him for just a few weeks, and he's been exposed to a ton of new stuff. Nothing wrong with that, but right now you're finding out where he needs work. He's a long way from a "hopeless case" that needs to be killed. If he was a bigger dog that you couldn't physically control, things might indeed by different. But he isn't.

You do need to control his contacts with people, and one part of that is being clear with people. If you give people (such as Sis) clear guidance, it will help in many cases. Since you know that people looking directly at him and talking to him is apt to be just too much for him, it's a good idea to tell people clearly and calmly "Please don't look straight at him, and don't talk to him, he's being rehabbed and he's not ready for that yet." Once he can be calm around people who are ignoring him, a little more contact is worth a try. It's a process. He needs to form positive associations with meeting humans.

One thing I have done with feral kittens and had others do to good effect, is to spray my hands with pheremones. It can make a huge difference. I guess you can't run around everywhere hosing people down with DAP, but under some circumstances it might be helpful to apply it to hands, pant legs and so on.

If you do get to the point where you just feel like you're in over your heads and you don't have/can't acquire the skills to get the job done, then it may be possible to find someone in rescue who would have the chops to deal with his issues and get him civilized enough to be placed.

I have known some mini poodles that had that kind of hair trigger, like something wrong with their wiring. Our three year old son received a permanent scar on his face from leaning in too close. The dogs I knew ended up being put down. Sadly, a lot of people just drop them off at a shelter hoping someone else will have better luck. And my experience is not about poodles, as most are total love bugs, but it sure is sad when it happens.

Some of the behavior sounds like the puppy mill rescue we had. Sometimes the way people were dressed (men in hats) (men wearing heavy work boots) and objects (shovels) and other things set her off. She was afraid. She had lived a horrible life and those things hurt her in the past. She did get much better, but is took a good year for her to learn that she could trust and that we wouldn't hurt her.
Curious -- how does he act when a phone rings, or a timer on a stove buzzes? Ours lived with an electronic bark collar that buzzed before it shocked her. At first she was terrified of those type of noises also.

raindove wrote:


Making excuses for his bad behaviors isn't helping the dog or the people he is exposed to. Your mother having a cup or shoe in her hand or the fact that she had a robe on is no excuse for the dog going into an aggressive behavior.


I hope I don't make you angry with my comments -- I know how difficult the whole scenario is. Been there and done it. It's a real emotional issue when trying to save a dog that might not be able to adjust to a normal life.

I know your intentions are good, but you have to consider how you'd feel if the dog ripped a kid's face up or seriously injured an elderly person -- or anyone else for that matter.

I do wish you luck.

Not angry at all. And I'm not making excuses, just describing the situation. I have good intentions, but I'm realistic. If we can't train this out of him, he will have to go. I have a very mentally handicapped son who is defenseless. So far, Tiki has not done this with him, although he did bark when he came home for a visit. I chalked that up to DS being a tall man who he had never met. But I did not allow the two of them to be together unsupervised at any time.

Like I said, I'm taking him to the trainer tomorrow. We'll have a frank discussion and see where it goes. I plan to talk to the vet shortly, too. I want to get her opinion before we do anything permanent. I'd like to give this dog a chance, but not if there is no chance of rehabilitation.

hammer21661 wrote:
put a muzzle on it when you go out.

Oh, believe me, we do!

I am not offended by the comments. I came here because I really want some advice. Hopefully, Dr. Doug will weigh in at some point. I'd hate to have to put this dog down, so I'll continue with the trainer for awhile. But I told my family when we got him that the ONE thing I would not put up with is biting. So far, he hasn't bitten anyone, only threatened. But that's enough to keep my guard up. If he doesn't straighten out soon, I will consider putting him down. I would not return him to the pound--I could never forgive myself if he was adopted by a family and bit their child.

DH and I have talked a bit about the behaviors. He said if Tiki was a big dog, like a lab or a pit bull, we would never put up with this behavior. And I agree. However, Tiki is not a big dog and we are very careful about not letting him get close to people (other than his idiot sister.) I had really hoped to use this dog as a therapy dog, but I don't think that's gonna happen. I would never take him into a school. We only took him into the nursing home because we could get in and out without meeting people. I'm not sure I want to do this for the next 10 years.

Lots to think about...

put a muzzle on it when you go out.

Wow.. I hope you have a good trainer. I agree with Wanda. No more public exposures until this problem has been worked out. You can not expose other people to this dog, and expect them to follow a special routine, so as not to set off a bad behavior. It's wonderful to save a dog's life, but not if it endangers others.