Anyone have damage from blow-only winterizing?

ScottG wrote:
The only damage I had was when I forgot to do the outside shower.
Otherwise no issues and I only put AF in the traps.

Wow...thanks for reminder...just ran antifreeze though the outside shower...going down to the mid 20's tonight. Finished winterizing this past weekend and put on the cover. Had that feeling I forgot something.

I only just blow out the lines in the fall if we are still camping and do both to winterize. We occasionally get down to single digits; not worth the risk. I've had leaks at the connections but not due to freezing.

I use the pink stuff, but if I where to use air, does one still bypass the hot water heater for any reason? Does it matter which faucet you start with?

rhagfo wrote:

Flapper wrote:

wa8yxm wrote:

Finally, The reason freezing damages pipes is because they are FULL of water which expands when it solidifies (turns to ice) in this it is unique, only substance on earth that does that. However if the pipe is say half full of air,, no damage can be done, since air, unlike ice, compresses very easily (ice too can be compressed but it is not done easily) (This last is proven by ice core samples at the polar ice cap by the way, the bottom is denser than the top, indicating compression).

Close, but not quite right on the theory - the ice expands and compresses the air, and it is the extreme air pressure that cracks the pipes. :h That's why they are always split some point after the ice, and why the plumber's advice to always leave a tap open in extreme weather. Of course, if your system allows two plugs of ice to form, then the piping in between is at risk!

I agree that if you hear gurgling, then the water is not out of the system. Even with my large tank compressor, I have to do the pressurize, rest, repeat thing several times before I stop getting anything out of the faucets.

Boy I hope that is an attempt at Sarcasm!! :B
The water would need to really expand to compress the air in the lines enough to crack the pipes!!

X2

All you need to do is bleed your brakes wrong, and you'll understand fast why you hope it's sarcasm.

But I see the fellow is from MN where it gets extremely cold, so I'll add some flesh to the bone cause I'm sure he's seen a lot of broken copper pipes/fittings over the years.

He is correct on stating that the pipe does not have to be full of water to break. The assumption is the frozen water will keep expanding into the air gap thus no damage, which is not true. Look at how boulders break. Water gets into a crack and freezes to the point the boulder is forced apart and will break. The water had the ability to expand upward in the crack which would be less resistance, but that is not how nature works. Ice expands in all directions, just ask a MN ice fisherman if he ever had ice crack under him, the answer will be "of course." If ice only expanded into the least resistance then the ice would have expanded up into the air.

jplante4 wrote:

hedge wrote:
I'm trying to figure out why anyone tastes the a/f. Are you putting it in the FW tank? I've never tasted it and I don't go around rinsing or anything like that, I just push the a/f out with water.

Ditto. We don't even drink the water in the onboard tank. Bottled water for cooking and drinking, tank water for cleaning up.

Well we do, both the tank and the parks water supply. Don't like the true cost of bottled water, most is no better than city water, just another marketing scam!
Just like hand sanitizer, five years from now it will be proven that they likely cause cancer! My grandmother and mother taught me proper hand washing.

hedge wrote:
I'm trying to figure out why anyone tastes the a/f. Are you putting it in the FW tank? I've never tasted it and I don't go around rinsing or anything like that, I just push the a/f out with water.

Ditto. We don't even drink the water in the onboard tank. Bottled water for cooking and drinking, tank water for cleaning up.

Flapper wrote:

wa8yxm wrote:

Finally, The reason freezing damages pipes is because they are FULL of water which expands when it solidifies (turns to ice) in this it is unique, only substance on earth that does that. However if the pipe is say half full of air,, no damage can be done, since air, unlike ice, compresses very easily (ice too can be compressed but it is not done easily) (This last is proven by ice core samples at the polar ice cap by the way, the bottom is denser than the top, indicating compression).

Close, but not quite right on the theory - the ice expands and compresses the air, and it is the extreme air pressure that cracks the pipes. :h That's why they are always split some point after the ice, and why the plumber's advice to always leave a tap open in extreme weather. Of course, if your system allows two plugs of ice to form, then the piping in between is at risk!

I agree that if you hear gurgling, then the water is not out of the system. Even with my large tank compressor, I have to do the pressurize, rest, repeat thing several times before I stop getting anything out of the faucets.

Boy I hope that is an attempt at Sarcasm!! :B
The water would need to really expand to compress the air in the lines enough to crack the pipes!!

hedge wrote:
I'm trying to figure out why anyone tastes the a/f. Are you putting it in the FW tank? I've never tasted it and I don't go around rinsing or anything like that, I just push the a/f out with water.

yep, I think a lot of this "tasting" is mental, not actual. :s
bumpy

wa8yxm wrote:

Finally, The reason freezing damages pipes is because they are FULL of water which expands when it solidifies (turns to ice) in this it is unique, only substance on earth that does that. However if the pipe is say half full of air,, no damage can be done, since air, unlike ice, compresses very easily (ice too can be compressed but it is not done easily) (This last is proven by ice core samples at the polar ice cap by the way, the bottom is denser than the top, indicating compression).

Close, but not quite right on the theory - the ice expands and compresses the air, and it is the extreme air pressure that cracks the pipes. That's why they are always split some point after the ice, and why the plumber's advice to always leave a tap open in extreme weather. Of course, if your system allows two plugs of ice to form, then the piping in between is at risk!

I agree that if you hear gurgling, then the water is not out of the system. Even with my large tank compressor, I have to do the pressurize, rest, repeat thing several times before I stop getting anything out of the faucets.

I'm trying to figure out why anyone tastes the a/f. Are you putting it in the FW tank? I've never tasted it and I don't go around rinsing or anything like that, I just push the a/f out with water.

shum02 wrote:

greatwhitenorth69 wrote:
I used to use antifreeze but could always taste it for the entire season.

After the winter when I'm finally ready to de-winterize for the spring/summer/fall season I do a rinse of water/bleach through the lines then another with vinegar to neutralize the taste of bleach then after that plain old tap water.

..Rinse with bleach, then rinse with vinegar to neutralize bleach, then one more rinse with water to clear it all out, every time you de-winterize. Wow.

Or, if you just blow out the lines, do NONE of that, and just GO when you want to, no flushing out of any kind necessary, and no bad taste from the water.

I think this highlights very clearly why many of us chose to use the blow-out method, and shows why its not just about the $4 saved in antifreeze. Its about having basically ZERO de-winterizing to do when you're ready to camp again.

Like I said before, if compressor blow-out is good enough for the RV manufacturers themselves and is what THEY use, AND its good enough for RV technicians that are contracted to winterize units that sit permanently up in the mountains (where it gets quite cold) all year....Welllll, it should be good enough for all of us.

This thread did remind me it was time to get the winterizing done, so I went ahead and got our Motorhome Saturday, same way I always have, using air compressor. Did some experimenting some with air pressure this time. Did it inititally with the compressor's dial set at 35 psi, then did it again at 50. I definitely noticed at 35 psi, you still can hear 'gurgling' coming from the pipes when opening faucets. You don't get all the water out with just 35 psi. When I did it at 50, it pushed a bit more water out, then no more gurgling. Cleared the pipes out much better.

'Twas a good reminder why I've always used 50 psi when blowing out the lines, and why we've never had an issue with this approach.

Will be wonderful when we decide to head out camping next time, to just throw some clothes, food, etc. in the Motorhome and go. No need to fool with plumbing at all. :)