Coast to coast in an Electric car towing a trailer.

John & Angela wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

smkettner wrote:

fireman41 wrote:
Why not hydrogen.(disclosure I transport and deliver liquid hydrogen). Right now Toyota is in the process of building a hydrogen fueling network in the north east it's going to start small and only consists of 12 stations but it's a start. Also lots of food wearhouse have switched there fork lift fleets over to run on hydrogen.

Hydrogen will find it's niche and right now it is a bit expensive for personal transportation.
Huge amounts of government money is trying to get this started. Automakers have also invested huge.
IMO it is just not going to pan out until the cost comes down.

Going to be a long time before a cross country trip is even possible let alone practical.

Hydrogen is not a fuel and never will be.

Most of you have no idea of the energy density problems of batteries. Gasoline has about 100x's more energy density than LI batteries.

Electric cars are fine around town but they will NEVER have the energy density of gasoline.

LINK

Physical energy limits of batteries.

Good morning. I understand that lithium ion batteries will never have the energy density of gas but I'm not sure why you would say that electric vehicles are only useful around town. Many EV owners already use them for more than that and Tesla owners routinely use them on 300 mile or more trips with no issues. They simply take a 20 or 30 minute break half way for a coffee and a quick charge. One of our two vehicles is still an oil burner and we never go more than about an hour and a half without a little break. Our electric vehicle has one of the shortest ranges out there (120 to 150 KM) and yet we still use it routinely between two cities. When we get to where we are going we plug in to a charge station and go shopping. When we are done shopping we unplug and go home. We do things differently when we are in our electric but it isn't any more convenient and doesn't take any more time.

I think there is a lot of mis-information out there in regards to living with an electric vehicle. It's actually pretty cool.

Safe travels.

Poor choice of words on my part.

This is a RV forum. When I say "around town" I mean around a town or small commute. Not towing an RV on the open road.

I want this guy doing this stunt to show a video of him going over Steamboat pass. Or going over Donner Pass. Or any other major passes that I tow over.

My point is, it's easy to show an electric car and trailer going down the road when it's flat with no hills or mountains. It's a whole different animal to tow over mountains with an electric car and trailer.

People complaint about the range of E85 and it's miles better than batteries.

Cummins12V98 wrote:

Old-Biscuit wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:

tdiller wrote:
Only two things run on batteries...
Golf carts and
Toys.

Until a vehicle can go 3-400 miles on a charge and refill/recharge in five minutes and do it again and again all day it'll never sit in my garage.

X2

Cold hard reality that some folk refuse to believe is that electric vehicles are NOT NEW.. Nope, in the 1890s there were MORE electric vehicles on the road than internal combustion or even steam powered..

Cold hard reality, electric vehicles back then only could get about 25-50 miles of driving and took overnight to recharge..

One Pioneer of electric vehicles from the 1890s produced electric vehicles up to 1901, sold his company off and went to work for Locomobile to design their FIRST GASOLINE POWERED VEHICLE.. He saw the main down fall of electric vehicles was the batteries..

1980s saw a couple of electric vehicles on the market, but those also suffered from lack of distance and charging issues.

While battery tech has improved SLIGHTLY over the years it still is very weak compared to gas or diesel for distance, cost to own, maintenance and refueling.

Not to mention, the notion that electric vehicles are a "clean" mode of transportation is BS..

There IS far more "E" waste generated in the building of EV batteries..

Not to mention adding overhead to already weak electric grid..

Then there is the mere fact of the "pollution" of supposed lack of..

There IS NO FREE LUNCH, energy is energy, it is dirty no matter how far away it is generated..

With a 30 yr career 'generating' energy (power plant control operator) I always get a huge chuckle out of folks and "I'm going green and reducing my carbon foot print"

:B

It's all a big feel good circle J--K!

Fact is these so called ZERO Emissions cars use either Coal, NaturalGas, or Nuclear power to charge these cars. Oh and lets not forget all the Hydro Power that if used you are killing
Salmon. Heck even the big windmills kill innocent birds.

On top of that the "Clean" car sure was not produced without any environmental impact.

I don't feel bad one bit driving my BIG fuel sucking Dually since I could breath the air right out of my exhaust.

These type of people feel they can plug in anywhere they choose since they are "saving the earth".

Example we went to our accountant and started walking up the steps and just about tripped over an electrical cord. The cord was running from a car parked literally in front of the steps so we had to approach from an edge. At first I thought they had to charge their "battery" because the car would not start. Heck no they were USING the owners Power while getting their taxes done. what a freakin MOOCH!

Just want to confirm. You feel you can breath the air out of your exhaust pipe? Did I read that right??

Old-Biscuit wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:

tdiller wrote:
Only two things run on batteries...
Golf carts and
Toys.

Until a vehicle can go 3-400 miles on a charge and refill/recharge in five minutes and do it again and again all day it'll never sit in my garage.

X2

Cold hard reality that some folk refuse to believe is that electric vehicles are NOT NEW.. Nope, in the 1890s there were MORE electric vehicles on the road than internal combustion or even steam powered..

Cold hard reality, electric vehicles back then only could get about 25-50 miles of driving and took overnight to recharge..

One Pioneer of electric vehicles from the 1890s produced electric vehicles up to 1901, sold his company off and went to work for Locomobile to design their FIRST GASOLINE POWERED VEHICLE.. He saw the main down fall of electric vehicles was the batteries..

1980s saw a couple of electric vehicles on the market, but those also suffered from lack of distance and charging issues.

While battery tech has improved SLIGHTLY over the years it still is very weak compared to gas or diesel for distance, cost to own, maintenance and refueling.

Not to mention, the notion that electric vehicles are a "clean" mode of transportation is BS..

There IS far more "E" waste generated in the building of EV batteries..

Not to mention adding overhead to already weak electric grid..

Then there is the mere fact of the "pollution" of supposed lack of..

There IS NO FREE LUNCH, energy is energy, it is dirty no matter how far away it is generated..

With a 30 yr career 'generating' energy (power plant control operator) I always get a huge chuckle out of folks and "I'm going green and reducing my carbon foot print"

:B

It's all a big feel good circle J--K!

Fact is these so called ZERO Emissions cars use either Coal, NaturalGas, or Nuclear power to charge these cars. Oh and lets not forget all the Hydro Power that if used you are killing
Salmon. Heck even the big windmills kill innocent birds.

On top of that the "Clean" car sure was not produced without any environmental impact.

I don't feel bad one bit driving my BIG fuel sucking Dually since I could breath the air right out of my exhaust.

These type of people feel they can plug in anywhere they choose since they are "saving the earth".

Example we went to our accountant and started walking up the steps and just about tripped over an electrical cord. The cord was running from a car parked literally in front of the steps so we had to approach from an edge. At first I thought they had to charge their "battery" because the car would not start. Heck no they were USING the owners Power while getting their taxes done. what a freakin MOOCH!

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

smkettner wrote:

fireman41 wrote:
Why not hydrogen.(disclosure I transport and deliver liquid hydrogen). Right now Toyota is in the process of building a hydrogen fueling network in the north east it's going to start small and only consists of 12 stations but it's a start. Also lots of food wearhouse have switched there fork lift fleets over to run on hydrogen.

Hydrogen will find it's niche and right now it is a bit expensive for personal transportation.
Huge amounts of government money is trying to get this started. Automakers have also invested huge.
IMO it is just not going to pan out until the cost comes down.

Going to be a long time before a cross country trip is even possible let alone practical.

Hydrogen is not a fuel and never will be.

Most of you have no idea of the energy density problems of batteries. Gasoline has about 100x's more energy density than LI batteries.

Electric cars are fine around town but they will NEVER have the energy density of gasoline.

LINK

Physical energy limits of batteries.

re "Most of you have no idea of the energy density problems of batteries. Gasoline has about 100x's more energy density than LI batteries."

Actually they are not all that much different....you have not checked your facts.

Superficially energy density is like 15x more with gasoline, *with existing technology*. There are already operating prototypes of Li Ion batteries that show triple this density.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density

Also energy density is not the key metric, it ignores efficiency. The very best gasoline motor gets maybe 25% efficiency, max. To the rear wheels less than 20% even without considering what happens when pulling a trailer and so less efficient high revs and volumetric efficiency, etc.. With electric motors you have a decent chance of getting into the 80% range, at the wheels, and that efficiency does not change much with varying loads like a gasoline motor does.
They are already making batteries part of the structure of these cars and distributing them though the chassis and under the seats. Try that with a gasoline tanks if you want to save space .....
Oh wait, you said batteries generically, not just LiIon. They are already prototyping carbon batteries, and even some are on sale. They will be cheap, no rare earth nor expensive lithium, they have virtually no internal impedance and so can be charged much faster than LiIon, and safely too. They have even higher energy density.....they are predicted to be mainstream within 10 years.
In summary the problem is not 'energy density', at least not mid to long term.

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

smkettner wrote:

fireman41 wrote:
Why not hydrogen.(disclosure I transport and deliver liquid hydrogen). Right now Toyota is in the process of building a hydrogen fueling network in the north east it's going to start small and only consists of 12 stations but it's a start. Also lots of food wearhouse have switched there fork lift fleets over to run on hydrogen.

Hydrogen will find it's niche and right now it is a bit expensive for personal transportation.
Huge amounts of government money is trying to get this started. Automakers have also invested huge.
IMO it is just not going to pan out until the cost comes down.

Going to be a long time before a cross country trip is even possible let alone practical.

Hydrogen is not a fuel and never will be.

Most of you have no idea of the energy density problems of batteries. Gasoline has about 100x's more energy density than LI batteries.

Electric cars are fine around town but they will NEVER have the energy density of gasoline.

LINK

Physical energy limits of batteries.

Good morning. I understand that lithium ion batteries will never have the energy density of gas but I'm not sure why you would say that electric vehicles are only useful around town. Many EV owners already use them for more than that and Tesla owners routinely use them on 300 mile or more trips with no issues. They simply take a 20 or 30 minute break half way for a coffee and a quick charge. One of our two vehicles is still an oil burner and we never go more than about an hour and a half without a little break. Our electric vehicle has one of the shortest ranges out there (120 to 150 KM) and yet we still use it routinely between two cities. When we get to where we are going we plug in to a charge station and go shopping. When we are done shopping we unplug and go home. We do things differently when we are in our electric but it isn't any more convenient and doesn't take any more time.

I think there is a lot of mis-information out there in regards to living with an electric vehicle. It's actually pretty cool.

Safe travels.

What would happen in the electric vehicle market if the batteries could be exchanged easily?
Shai Agazzi is stating the "refueling" process would take less time than filling your tank.

Smkettner is very tuned in to the energy density capabilities of batteries, if you'll check out his posts in tech issues. I'm certainly aware of their limitations. We're not going to be pushing a big rig down the open highway on battery power anytime soon. Or a typical motorhome used as motorhomes are.

But this little exercise does show how far things have come with batteries over the years. Pulling a small travel trailer over 100 miles on batteries..that's pretty cool. The Tesla with over 200 mile range unhooked is useful for a lot of transportation purposes. These are viable automobiles.

Those of us who think this little exercise is a good thing are very likely as knowledgeable of battery limitations as anyone. I'm looking at it as testament to how far we've come. Like many others here, I don't have electric vehicle. It doesn't suit my purpose. But does everything out there have to fit in our own worlds?

smkettner wrote:

fireman41 wrote:
Why not hydrogen.(disclosure I transport and deliver liquid hydrogen). Right now Toyota is in the process of building a hydrogen fueling network in the north east it's going to start small and only consists of 12 stations but it's a start. Also lots of food wearhouse have switched there fork lift fleets over to run on hydrogen.

Hydrogen will find it's niche and right now it is a bit expensive for personal transportation.
Huge amounts of government money is trying to get this started. Automakers have also invested huge.
IMO it is just not going to pan out until the cost comes down.

Going to be a long time before a cross country trip is even possible let alone practical.

Hydrogen is not a fuel and never will be.

Most of you have no idea of the energy density problems of batteries. Gasoline has about 100x's more energy density than LI batteries.

Electric cars are fine around town but they will NEVER have the energy density of gasoline.

LINK

Physical energy limits of batteries.

Gdetrailer wrote:

rjxj wrote:
They will be all wheel drive with a motor at each wheel with zero loss through a drive train. I have a Rayeo electric outboard motor on a pontoon boat that uses a Briggs & Stratton Etek brushless pancake motor. Four group 27 in series will do 8 mph. It's not powerful enough for a vehicle obviously but it could easily fit in the backside of many wheels. Motors at the wheel will provide anti lock braking, traction control and regenerative braking with only two bearings to wear out. The wheel could become half of the motor for further efficiency. The electric cars of today are still pretty crude compared to what we will have in 10 or 20 years.

Etek

Not a trolling motor :)

There is no such thing as "zero loss".

Electric motors STILL use pretty much the same principals as the early 1890s electric motors.

You have windings made of copper wire, you have iron, you have friction of the bearings and so on.

You can only REDUCE the "loss" but even that has reached the point of no returns there..

Then you add in all the parasitic losses, modern day motors are driven by electronic controllers, there are a lot of losses there.. Then you add in silly comfort things like HEAT, A/C, and stereo..

In reality, the battery IS STILL the weak point.

It is simply a means of "storing" energy, it is a clumsy means of doing so and even that has serious losses.

Building batteries is a DIRTY process, it uses a lot of extremely harmful chemicals not to mention requires considerable amount of metals (some are rather dangerous by themselves), then you have ll the leftover hazardous materials from the build process that must be properly disposed of.

Electric vehicles being touted as "clean" and "renewable" is nothing more than a mirage and smoke screen, there is nothing clean about them..

Then when the battery life is done, you have a large hunk of hazardous material that you you will have to pay to dispose of..

Then you have another problem.. Guess what happens when the manufacturer of your EV decides to discontinue your battery?

Yep, the vehicle becomes JUNK!

There is no set standard for modern EVs and the manufacturer CAN pull the rug right from under you by no longer providing a battery!

Nothing like planned obsolescence of the entire vehicle!

You could have a 3 or 4 yr old vehicle being hauled off to the scrap yard just because nobody makes a replacement battery..

Sounds very green for the manufacturer and the scrapper in the form of cash.. Manufacturer gets to sell another vehicle faster and the scrapper gets to turn over more scrap metal faster..

Are you saying that your great grand daddy hated the automobile and wanted to stick with horses? :)

westernrvparkowner wrote:
We don't have any slots filled with Teslas. I was just pointing out the electrical grids of RV parks cannot accommodate electric vehicles. To do so would require the remaking of the entire electric system in the park and that would cost 100s of thousands of dollars.

Well you did point out multiple EVs drawing the max would be an issue. And it also seems one per loop would be fine.

westernrvparkowner wrote:
And I am not going to rent a site for $35.00 to charge a vehicle. I get much more than that renting that site to an RV and I don't have someone trying to kill 6 hours of idle time.

So charge full pop. These are fairly well to do people, not trouble makers. Probably just hang on the phone or use your wifi to surf.

westernrvparkowner wrote:
I think my business is going to remain pretty much the same until my batteries are fully discharged. People will stay in my RV parks and will refuel/recharge their vehicles at a vehicle refueling/charging facility.

You could have one parking spot for charging with a dedicated circuit and not really affect the general campground. For a fee of course.

westernrvparkowner wrote:
But until charging times improves dramatically or the range of electric vehicles increases significantly, electric vehicles will not become practical for many of us.

Your choice for your personal use. Just seems odd to pass up easy business. To charge faster the vehicles need far more power than a 14-50 outlet provides. Charging speed is mostly a supply issue more than a vehicle issue. I have never actually sat and waited for my EV to charge so speed really has not been a issue day to day.

westernrvparkowner wrote:
I often face a 300 plus round trip that has to be completed in a day, hauling a substantial load in my pickup, often towing a utility trailer. Current electric vehicles would turn that into a three or 4 day journey.

Yes the current EVs would take a bit of extra effort and 2 days max IMO.

westernrvparkowner wrote:
Might as well get a horse and wagon team and use no fossil fuels.

Don't underestimate how long a horse and wagon would take to go 300 miles.