Electric Vehicles? Towing? Hauling?

1320Fastback wrote:

time2roll wrote:

1320Fastback wrote:
I'd buy a 1 ton electric truck in a second if it had no less than a 500 mile range while towing a travel trailer, at night, with the heater on and could recharge overnight in maybe 5-6 hours.

Seriously, take my money!

My Gasser just goes 175 miles before I need a fill. I would be happy with 250 towing range to allow for the extra distance between a fill-up.

I have friends with similar range. When we do far away dog shows I always make it there hours before them if we leave at a similar time and that's just from not having to stop so often. I can go just over 400 miles on 30 gallons of diesel but of course don't push it that far on purpose. Since this is a truck of the future I want it to be better than the one I have now that is 27 years old hence the 500 miles ;)

I had a though though. Wonder if you would fire up the Gen and run a cord to the trucks power plug? Charge while you drive!

The good thing about more range is that miles can be added faster to the battery as the max charging rate is proportional to the capacity. Some day 500 or even 900 miles could be possible but not the first ones to hit the market. I speculate most pick-ups go less than 150 miles in a day and are virtually empty. Even a local tradesman with a tool truck should be doable. This is the market that will be covered first. Probably need a technology breakthrough to get realistic 500+ miles towing range.

Generator would be better as a hybrid truck for more efficiency and lower emissions.

Reisender wrote:


Advantages for us? A lot of it we just take for granted now. Here’s a few in no particular order that apply to us. I’m sure there are some I have missed.

agree that some advantages and conveniences are individual. but some of what you cite are either clearly not when considered in the context of cross-country driving or raise a whole lotta questions. for instance..

Reisender wrote:
- No wasted time at gas stations. Fuel at night while sleeping.

one of two things need to be true before EVs can be considered for long distance driving: either the range has to be at least 500-miles or the recharge time has to be about the same as the average stop to refill gas. both would seem to be a long way off. i certainly don't want to wait 1-6 hours every ~200-miles for the batteries to recharge. question: if stuck in traffic...literally not moving...are the batteries discharging like a gasser burning gas while idling?

Reisender wrote:
- No grabbing a gas pump handle after somebody else just scratched their (fill in the blank).

well, you're still touching something on the charging stand. if someone is that squeamish then they must go really crazy at a campground. hand sanitizer does the job for those that must have it.

Reisender wrote:
- Drive and forget no maintenance driving. (Well, washer fluid, wiper blades, brake fluid once in a while). No oil, filters, hoses, belts, plugs and brakes don’t get used much so very little wear.

what is the lifespan of the batteries and what's it cost to replace them? and what about battery disposal? can they be recycled? there are obviously other moving parts so what is their lifespan and the cost to maintain?

Reisender wrote:
- Very quiet ride. Model dependant though. We found bolt was a little louder.

agree that this would be great! a buddy has a Prius and has noticed that he sometimes startles people at crossings..people who did not hear him coming. maybe some low level artificial noise needs to be added to warn pedestrians?

Reisender wrote:
- fuel (electricity) is cheap but this depends where you live of course.

I think this is a major issue. nuclear seems to be going away, at least it is here in Illinois, and with current technology i don't see solar/wind possibly bridging the gap. new power plants don't seem to be springing up and the grid in some parts of the country are suffering from brown-outs. the energy to provide power to what we all have and enjoy now plus the network of fast-rate charging stations has to come from somewhere.

Reisender wrote:
- We are not on a tight budget so this is relative but cost of driving is a fraction of the Grand Cherokee.

did your insurance stay about the same, go up, go down?

Reisender wrote:
- We can drive in the HOV lanes although that’s only when we visit a neighbouring city which is 80 km away which is only a couple times a month.

the HOV lanes I'm familiar with...and we've been in every state in the lower 48...require at least two persons to use those lanes. are you saying that you can use the HOV lanes while driving alone?

like you I have nothing against EVs and maybe, one day, they will evolve into truly useful vehicles.

There are many things worth actually worrying about, worry that you'll be forced to drive an EV and won't be able to use it to go RVing, is way, way, way, way, down the list. You'll be forced to drive an EV about the time your personal jet car is delivered.

rk911:

Stuck in traffic the EV fares much better than petrol. Drivetrain takes virtually no power to idle. Just a motor running the A/C compressor of which is more efficient than petrol power because the rpm is always at the optimum instead of dependent on engine rpm.

When refueling you will never spill petrol on your shoes, pants, hands or step in a mess left by the last person.

Tesla expects batteries to last the life of the vehicle or 500,000 miles. Yes on recycling or even better they can be repurposed as stationary batteries as a home backup, store solar, or load shift off times of peak demand. Drive axle is constant mesh gears and is serviced about the same as a differential at maybe 150,000 miles. Brake pads should last 2x to 4x in miles. You may go through tires faster due to the high torque and driving excitement. Rest is about the same.

Not just a quiet ride but smoother without the engine vibration. Especially noticed on a long drive not as tiring. Petrol vehicles drive like a bucket of bolts after you are in an EV for a few months and switch back for the day.

My insurance is about the same. Hard to compare depending on the vehicle swapped. Yes many areas give single rider access to the HOV lanes for at least a limited time.

EVs are very useful low cost vehicles now for many people right now. Yes your needs may not be met yet and I expect improvements every year. So maybe soon.

Good morning RK. All good questions and I'll do my best to answer them. I'll put in the body of your text though so there is less cutting and pasting. Ihave put my answers in Italics so it is a little easier to read. Hope these answers help. I am not an EV expert.

rk911 wrote:

Reisender wrote:


Advantages for us? A lot of it we just take for granted now. Here’s a few in no particular order that apply to us. I’m sure there are some I have missed.

agree that some advantages and conveniences are individual. but some of what you cite are either clearly not when considered in the context of cross-country driving or raise a whole lotta questions. for instance..

Absolutely. The longest trip we make regularly is about 320 KM so long range capability is just not something we would have paid money for at the time. This will change in about 3 years but we change out our vehicles every 5 or 6 years so we'll deal with it then.

Reisender wrote:
- No wasted time at gas stations. Fuel at night while sleeping.

Same answer as long range like that is not something we currently need. But you may have your charge times off. Depending on the EV you are driving 20 to 40 minutes is more the norm for that kind of mileage. We seldom use DCFC facilities. Maybe half a dozen time per year on road trips. But we have never "waited" to charge as we just time it with a lunch break or a dog walk break. We have also never had a gas vehicle that goes 500 miles on a tank and even if we had it would not have been a useful feature as we stop a lot more often than that. Usually every few hours. This was true in the Grand Cherokee and still is now. The grand cherokee was good for around 520 KM of range which I think is around 320 ish miles.

Towing range was good with our Ford powerstroke diesel but around 300 km (200 miles?) with our GMC 3/4 ton gasser.

If stuck in traffic there is virtually no draw on the battery unless you have the AC on. In 35 degrees C once the car is cool the AC draws about 1/2 a kilowatt and will sometimes cycle to 1 killowatt so it can literally sit in traffic for days and keep the car cool. Most modern EV's have 40 to 65 KW batteries. I'll post a pic at the bottom showing draw. Heads up though. For the first 5 or 10 minutes I have seen our AC draw triple that. A car is a pretty small space though so once its cool its easy to keep it that way.

one of two things need to be true before EVs can be considered for long distance driving: either the range has to be at least 500-miles or the recharge time has to be about the same as the average stop to refill gas. both would seem to be a long way off. i certainly don't want to wait 1-6 hours every ~200-miles for the batteries to recharge. question: if stuck in traffic...literally not moving...are the batteries discharging like a gasser burning gas while idling?

Reisender wrote:
- No grabbing a gas pump handle after somebody else just scratched their (fill in the blank).

well, you're still touching something on the charging stand. if someone is that squeamish then they must go really crazy at a campground. hand sanitizer does the job for those that must have it.

Thats true. And my response was meant to inject some humour. But keep in mind the vast majority of the average EV'ers charging is done at home in the driveway. I think in 2018 it was 93 percent. No smell of gas or diesel on the handle though. But yah, not a biggy.

Reisender wrote:
- Drive and forget no maintenance driving. (Well, washer fluid, wiper blades, brake fluid once in a while). No oil, filters, hoses, belts, plugs and brakes don’t get used much so very little wear.

what is the lifespan of the batteries and what's it cost to replace them? and what about battery disposal? can they be recycled? there are obviously other moving parts so what is their lifespan and the cost to maintain?

Modern EV's have only been around for about 10 years so some of those are hard questions. The early batteries in 2011 and 2012 also had some heat issues in hot climates. Batteries are typically warrantied for 8 or more years so the first 8 or so years are free if there is a failure. The batteries in a modern EV are rated to last the life of the car but range does drop off as the car gets older. Tesla batteries are showing losses of about 10 percent after 160,000 km. Nissan Leafs about twice that much although their first two years 2011 and 2012 that was much higher. We have noticed little to no degradation in ours after 4 years. A re and re on a Leaf is supposedly 8000 bucks but to date other than warranty I don't think very many people have paid for a new battery. SOme of the original madrid Leaf cabs from 2011 are over a quarter million kilometers. But although they have hot summers the climate is low mountainous.

Re recycling. I think the industry is still too young to have a large recycling presence. Most EV batteries now are re purposed for off grid storage or UPS type environment. There is some interesting googling on that.

Reisender wrote:
- Very quiet ride. Model dependent though. We found bolt was a little louder.

agree that this would be great! a buddy has a Prius and has noticed that he sometimes startles people at crossings..people who did not hear him coming. maybe some low level artificial noise needs to be added to warn pedestrians?

Both our EV's have a pedestrian warning sound that is active under 30 KMh. Apparently not required in all countries. Don't know about the USA.

Reisender wrote:
- fuel (electricity) is cheap but this depends where you live of course.

I think this is a major issue. nuclear seems to be going away, at least it is here in Illinois, and with current technology i don't see solar/wind possibly bridging the gap. new power plants don't seem to be springing up and the grid in some parts of the country are suffering from brown-outs. the energy to provide power to what we all have and enjoy now plus the network of fast-rate charging stations has to come from somewhere.

I know very about the US grid other than what I read here. I have read multiple posters here indicate it is always on the verge of collapse and that the 20 percent extra load required to power a completely electric car fleet will essentially cause a national collapse. I don't understand the reasoning but apparently there are some geopolitical factors in play. Most countries utilities don't see any any unsolvable engineering problems. I'm sure you guys will figure it out. You always do.

Heads up though. Although we have a 40 amp 240 volt charger in the garage that we put in when we first switched to EV's the vast amount of our charging is done on a 120 volt 15 amp circuit and a 240 volt 15 amp circuit. The 40 amp unit cost me 500 bucks...and I probably wouldn't do it again. My point is that most EVSE's are less draw than a water heater. Most people we know plug in once or twice a week over night. Some program their timers to come on at 1201 midnight to allow for cheaper rates. For us it's always roughly 10 cents per kilowatt hour. A kilowatt takes you about 6.5 kilometers

Reisender wrote:
- We are not on a tight budget so this is relative but cost of driving is a fraction of the Grand Cherokee.

did your insurance stay about the same, go up, go down?

Our insurance went up a couple hundred bucks but it was a 7 year newer vehicle soooo.

Reisender wrote:
- We can drive in the HOV lanes although that’s only when we visit a neighbouring city which is 80 km away which is only a couple times a month.

the HOV lanes I'm familiar with...and we've been in every state in the lower 48...require at least two persons to use those lanes. are you saying that you can use the HOV lanes while driving alone?

Yep. Only EV's though. No hybrids.

like you I have nothing against EVs and maybe, one day, they will evolve into truly useful vehicles.

Yep. It has to suit your needs or you end up doing it twice. When we buy a vehicle we try to imagine it working for us for the next 5 to 7 years. By that time we are looking for new tech and new safety feature. And someone always gets a well cared for used vehicle.

Here are a couple of interesting pics.

The first shows 6.7 km per KW. This is our first generation leaf so shorter range. This number drops in the middle of the winter (maybe 5.8) and goes up in spring and fall. Summer also drops to maybe 6.3 with AC use. This car has a heat pump so th heat doesn't suck a lot of power till it gets below about zero celcius. We see a loss of about 1/3 of our range in winter. No effect on us as we don't travel far in the winter...or we fly.



This is our 120 volt EVSE. Connected to our soffitt plug for christmas lights. We don't have Christmas lights.



This is our 240 volt 12 amp EVSE. We got a deal on it otherwise I probably wouldn't have installed it. Had to run a circuit for it for a few hundred bucks. Its on a 15 amp breaker but we ran 8 gauge to future proof a bit.



Below is our 240 volt 40 amp EVSE. I wouldn't do it again but it has been handy a few times over the last few years. There is a fast charger about 10 blocks from our house so probably wasn't really necessary as in a short notice pinch I suppose we could go there. Meh. Its in now.



This pic shows the AC drawing about 1 KW so it was obviously a hot day when I took it. But once its cool maybe 1/2 kilowatt. Notice it calculates the range you loose from your remaining range (on the left)

Reisender wrote:

Your 60 mile trip would be closer to 2 hours of charging at home not 10 hours. Then again, even if you are just connected to a 120 outlet and it takes that long who would care. It charges while you sleep.

If someone needs or wants a gas car there is nothing wrong with that. But they have a lot of things to improve before they have the convenience and features of a present day electric. If the features of a gasser better suit your lifestyle that’s what you should buy. But the “energy density of gasoline” doesn’t provide any advantage for me so I’ll stick with electric.

The point is you typically have 10+ hr in the garage to recharge...so even with a basic 10amp 120v plug, you can recharge 60miles and it's a non issue.

Once you get away from a commuter car use case (or similar), energy density of batteries is the primary limiting factor in moving EVs from novelties to viable for the majority of people.

valhalla360 wrote:

Reisender wrote:

Your 60 mile trip would be closer to 2 hours of charging at home not 10 hours. Then again, even if you are just connected to a 120 outlet and it takes that long who would care. It charges while you sleep.

If someone needs or wants a gas car there is nothing wrong with that. But they have a lot of things to improve before they have the convenience and features of a present day electric. If the features of a gasser better suit your lifestyle that’s what you should buy. But the “energy density of gasoline” doesn’t provide any advantage for me so I’ll stick with electric.

The point is you typically have 10+ hr in the garage to recharge...so even with a basic 10amp 120v plug, you can recharge 60miles and it's a non issue.

Once you get away from a commuter car use case (or similar), energy density of batteries is the primary limiting factor in moving EVs from novelties to viable for the majority of people.

I think I get what you are saying but long range EV’s (not ours) are quite capable of 800 or 900 km daily road trips. It’s done everyday. A lunch break while charging is needed and if it’s a multi day trip then usually an overnight at a hotel with destination charging which is usually 48 amp. But I agree, for those who travel over a thousand kilometres per day or maybe drive in shifts, a gas or diesel vehicle would be a better solution. But I’m not sure if that is a large number of people. Other than my military career, a long day for us is about 800 kilometres Easily achieved with a long range EV and a charging lunch stop.

Honestly our road trips are all presently in our Diesel pusher but that will change in a couple years.

valhalla360 wrote:
Correction: Most are virtue signaling about being green.

Of course, they will outperform 0 to 60, that's the advantage of max torque from 0 RPM..but otherwise, ICE performance cars at half the price will win out. Heck on a 100 mile road track race, I would put my money on the econobox 4 banger of your choice because the tesla will run out of juice or have to be held back to save battery.

Not to argue with you in fact I agree with you. But I recently read a post from someone who wants to drive 80 MPH with their motorhome towing a car.

The CBers call that "Feeding the bears"

Or as one Trooper put it... Well here is the full consideration.

He commented that I was driving a bit fast going into work (Passing all the other cars) said it did not look good (I was perhaps speed limit +5)

I commented what was worse was him passing me as I was passing everybody else (he was passing me)

He replied what was worse still was the STROH's TRUCK passing him, as he was passing me. as I was passing everybody else and that's why HE got the ticket.. After we got done laughing we agreed.

I've slowed down since retirement.

time2roll wrote:

SidecarFlip wrote:
My only comment is, the grid as it presently stands won't support mass electric vehicles.

The good thing is we only need about 20% improvement to fully support EV transportation and we have 20+ years to achieve that improvement.

No, not so fast.

Sidecar is pointing out the "elephant in the room" that absolutely is ignored by all that "want" everyone to buy EV.

The "grid" as it stands today is not "growing" in power plants and infrastructure in order to support a 100% all electric based road system.

MANY coal power plants have been shuttered a few yrs back, and this trend at this time is not stopping.

Very few NEW NG based plants have been added to replace the coal plants. The few new Nuclear plants that were under contract and being built have had the plug pulled indefinitely on the projects and some of the existing Nuclear plants ARE being shuttered 10-15 yrs AHEAD of their expected scheduled shutdown.

Solar, well it IS expensive, only works for 5-6hrs per day on good clear days and not very well for northern states, only about 20yrs of life expectancy means a very expensive project to refresh the aging panels down the road. Lots of electronic waste in the process of making solar panels (some very hazardous materials are required to make the panels).

Wind power, yeah, only works when the wind blows fast enough, very little good places that have 24/7/365 constant wind above 15 MPH makes it pretty unreliable at best and not to mention uses a lot of fiberglass and resin (not "Earth Friendly").

Hydro electric? Yeah, not going to find any friends there to get more HE Dams built, in fact HE faces a big uphill battle to stay in place with many dams being REMOVED over the last few yrs to appease environmental interests in game and fishing.

Coal and NG power plants typically have much lower operating costs resulting in much lower power bills. Nuclear, HE, Solar, Wind power ARE by far much costlier to build, operate and maintain, all of those costs ARE directly paid by you the end user..

It should also be noted that it takes time to rampup power production (spin up a alternator) so there are backup power generating plants that are running "at idle" during low usage periods and during high usage times are added to the grid. Some of the backup plants can include Diesel gens..

Haven't even got to the actual power grid, there are considerable amount of land in the US with ZERO grid access and will never have grid power since there will never be enough customers per line miles to be worth the cost to build and maintain such a system to the POCO.

Not to mention that folks soon forget about the blackouts, the last major one was back in 2003 spanning the Northeast US into limited parts of Canada and affected 50 MILLION people for up to one day.

Much of the US grid infrastructure is old and antiquated and has not been updated with larger feedlines, tranformers and switching equipment..

How soon folks forget history..

Heck 25 yrs ago when I bought my home I had an issue with the hole house A/C I had installed would shut down my sat equipment.. Yeah, the sat equipment was designed to operate at no less than 105V, the A/C startup surge was dropping the voltage below 105V! For the record, I had UPGRADED my service entrance from a 50A fuse box to a 200A breaker panel..

Had the POCO come in, they measured my voltage at my panel, then at the pole pig, the drop was coming from THEIR HIGH VOLTAGE LINES BEFORE THE POLE PIG!. The "fix", well the POCO put in huge pole mounted BOOSTERS 2 miles from my home in between the substation that was only 2 miles from the boosters!

POCO explained to me that the lines NEEDED to be upgraded due to the large amount of homes built since the lines wer put in many, many years before but for now the fix was the voltage boosters..

EV is fine for those who have subsidized CHEAP electric, my electric at one time WAS very cheap, used to cost me not more than $30 per month 25yrs ago, now my average electric bill is $130 per month and growing..

I would hate to see what my electric bill would be if I have all EV for commuting with driving 500 miles per week, costs me $60 per week in gas but I can assure you the way the electric bill is rigged with all of the % fees tacked on I would be seeing much more than $240 increase per month for electric!

Nearly 50% of my electric bill is generation taxes, maintenance taxes, local taxes, fed taxes and all but the fed taxes are a PERCENTAGE of the electric cost..

Yeah, my "base generation rate" is $.07 per Kwhr but the final bill comes to $.12 per Kwhr at the current $130 bill.. IF I use more power the taxes and fees go way up.. It wouldn't take much for me to have a $400-$500 electric bill.. and I am lucky, only a couple of miles from me there ARE folks stuck on REA (Rural Electrification Act) Co-Op that pay TWICE the rate I pay (the Co-Op buys at HIGHER commercial POCO rates then adds an addition FEE to resell to it's customers!

At 12 cents that 500 miles costs $18 in electricity vs $60 in gasoline.
Yes if you have tiered rates electric could climb faster.

Currently wind and PV solar cost less per kWh to install/operate than a coal plant costs to operate (already installed). The money chase will be compelling.

The EV will charge fine with voltage sagging to 208 overnight.

Not sure I get the power outage thing vs shutting down power plants. Seems like a disconnect of production and usage.