ethanol

Been an interesting thread, a true 2 bagger (buttered popcorn thread) but I'm unsubscribing now. It's getting tedious. It is what it is, E or no E. Simple choice really.

In my town 3 stations have 0-E fuel and I use it for all my small engines. For my gas bunner truck I have used 10-E for years without issue and will continue to do so. On the pumps here regular fuel without ethanol is 87 octane and with ethanol is 89 octane. Premium fuel non-ethanol is 91. I have found performance was better on 89 octane ethanol compared to 87 octane non ethanol.

MrWizard wrote:
there is some really screwy logic and statements in this thread,
like e10 creates more pollution

gas the is 10% ethanol and 90% gasoline does not produce more pollution
it produces approx 10% less pollution for the per gallon of fuel in the engine

yes it has a little bit less energy and you drive a little bit less distant for the same amount of pure GAS

if you drive the same distant, and use a little bit more gasoline (not 10%, alcohol does have fuel energy)
then you are back to the same or less level of pollution

if the studies are correct , it is less,

you can prove anything with numbers, it is all about WHICH numbers you choose and how you display them

but most of this 'argument' has had no studies, no numbers ,presented
just 'emotion' in misstated logic

the pollution figures in the epa report is from the ethanol plants. I.e. the pollution emitted from producing ethanol.

MrWizard wrote:
there is some really screwy logic and statements in this thread,
like e10 creates more pollution

gas the is 10% ethanol and 90% gasoline does not produce more pollution
it produces approx 10% less pollution for the per gallon of fuel in the engine

yes it has a little bit less energy and you drive a little bit less distant for the same amount of pure GAS

if you drive the same distant, and use a little bit more gasoline (not 10%, alcohol does have fuel energy)
then you are back to the same or less level of pollution

if the studies are correct , it is less,

you can prove anything with numbers, it is all about WHICH numbers you choose and how you display them

but most of this 'argument' has had no studies, no numbers ,presented
just 'emotion' in misstated logic

Leave it to you to add some common sense to the discussion. ;)

All things considered, I personally think there are more "cons" that "pros" to using ethanol blended gasoline. Definitely no appreciable advantage. :@

JaxDad wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

Terryallan wrote:
Has any one heard the rumor that they may stop forcing us to buy gas with ethanol in it? I read the program may be stopped.

IMOP would be a good thing. Ethanol robs power, hurts MPG, and causes more maintenance.

Ethanol adds power, not robs it. For sure it hurts MPG but only about 3 to 4% for E10.

You cannot reduce the amount of energy and ‘add power’ at the same time, it’s scientifically impossible. Ethanol has only about 2/3 the energy by volume, BTU’s, that gasoline does.

Only the EPA is silly enough to quote figures like that, they are purely ‘calculated’ figures, not real world proven numbers. The rest of the auto industry says 6 to 10 percent is typical, but if you actually speak to those people they will readily tell you it’s 10 to 15 percent but for fear of political back-lash they don’t say that publicly.

Oh sweet Gesus, where do I start. :R Every fuel that I can think of is inversely proportional to it's BTU's. In other words, the more BTU's it contains the less power it puts out.

Lets take a look at some fuels. Lets look at the BTU's of various fuels that are used in engines.

Pure Gasoline: BTU's / gallon= 114,100.

E10 Gasoline: BTU's / Gallon= 111,836.

E85 Gasoline: BTU's / Gallon= 81,800.

Ethanol (E100): BTU's / Gallon= 76,100.

Methanol (M100): BTU's / Gallon= 56,800.

Nitromethane: BTU's / Gallon= 47,000

List reference

As you can see from this list what fuel would I pick if I were going for a fuel economy test? Pure gasoline FOR SURE!! It has the biggest bang for the buck when it comes to fuel economy.

What would be the worst? Nitromethane for sure! That is why top fuel dragsters use 12 to 15 gallons of fuel in a 1/4 mile run!! :E

If you look at what fuels put out the most power in motor sports nitromethane is at the top of the list by far, far, far and away. Then Methanol, then Ethanol, then E85, then E10, then Pure Gasoline putting out the least amount of power.

You don't need a dyno to figure this out. All you have to do is go to any drag strip and see which cars are the fastest and ask them what fuel they are burning. The list will look like above.

Now I'm sure you're going say, "that's impossible!!!!" How can that be? I will tell you how. For the simple matter that it is easier to pump a liquid than a gas. You see; the most powerful fuel in the world (nitromethane) has the most O2 in it / the list above. This makes it a monopropellant.

The same way with alky. It has O2 in it and it is very cold so that draws even more of that good O2 into the engine. Double your power on E85


Look, I'm no alky fan boi. I don't really like the stuff at all. It has a LOT of downsides. But to say things like alky puts out less power than gasoline is silly. Or to say things like E10 puts out more smog than pure gasoline is really silly!

2oldman wrote:
If Obama did it then it has to go. Have heard nothing about it.

Sadly. that does see to be the current policy.

But Contaminated With Alcohol gasoline dates back to well before George Bush, (Pick one) Let alone Obama. There have been some adjustements in the percentage but I do not recall when.

Here in Florida, you can buy Ethanol free gasoline. Many gas stations in my area sell it but not all of them. It is quite a bit more expensive though. I put it in my weed whacker and my small generator. Don't see a need to put it in my vehicles since they are driven regularly and the gas doesn't sit for long periods like my weed whacker.

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

JaxDad wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

Terryallan wrote:
Has any one heard the rumor that they may stop forcing us to buy gas with ethanol in it? I read the program may be stopped.

IMOP would be a good thing. Ethanol robs power, hurts MPG, and causes more maintenance.

Ethanol adds power, not robs it. For sure it hurts MPG but only about 3 to 4% for E10.

You cannot reduce the amount of energy and ‘add power’ at the same time, it’s scientifically impossible. Ethanol has only about 2/3 the energy by volume, BTU’s, that gasoline does.

Only the EPA is silly enough to quote figures like that, they are purely ‘calculated’ figures, not real world proven numbers. The rest of the auto industry says 6 to 10 percent is typical, but if you actually speak to those people they will readily tell you it’s 10 to 15 percent but for fear of political back-lash they don’t say that publicly.

Oh sweet Gesus, where do I start. :R Every fuel that I can think of is inversely proportional to it's BTU's. In other words, the more BTU's it contains the less power it puts out.

Lets take a look at some fuels. Lets look at the BTU's of various fuels that are used in engines.

Pure Gasoline: BTU's / gallon= 114,100.

E10 Gasoline: BTU's / Gallon= 111,836.

E85 Gasoline: BTU's / Gallon= 81,800.

Ethanol (E100): BTU's / Gallon= 76,100.

Methanol (M100): BTU's / Gallon= 56,800.

Nitromethane: BTU's / Gallon= 47,000

List reference

As you can see from this list what fuel would I pick if I were going for a fuel economy test? Pure gasoline FOR SURE!! It has the biggest bang for the buck when it comes to fuel economy.

What would be the worst? Nitromethane for sure! That is why top fuel dragsters use 12 to 15 gallons of fuel in a 1/4 mile run!! :E

If you look at what fuels put out the most power in motor sports nitromethane is at the top of the list by far, far, far and away. Then Methanol, then Ethanol, then E85, then E10, then Pure Gasoline putting out the least amount of power.

You don't need a dyno to figure this out. All you have to do is go to any drag strip and see which cars are the fastest and ask them what fuel they are burning. The list will look like above.

Now I'm sure you're going say, "that's impossible!!!!" How can that be? I will tell you how. For the simple matter that it is easier to pump a liquid than a gas. You see; the most powerful fuel in the world (nitromethane) has the most O2 in it / the list above. This makes it a monopropellant.

The same way with alky. It has O2 in it and it is very cold so that draws even more of that good O2 into the engine. Double your power on E85


Look, I'm no alky fan boi. I don't really like the stuff at all. It has a LOT of downsides. But to say things like alky puts out less power than gasoline is silly. Or to say things like E10 puts out more smog than pure gasoline is really silly!

Thanks for setting the record straight. To many accept opinion as fact and are simply wrong.

I buy 87 octane 10% (more or less) ethanol for everything.
Everytime I fill the Outdoor Power Equipment gas cans, I add a little over 2 ounces of Sta-Bil to the can before filling. That fuel runs the 22 HP lawn tractor, my ATVs, my generator that powers the shop, my air compressor, and my pressure washer. I use the same fuel to mix with Opti-Lube for the 2 stroke cycle mini-tiller and the weed whacker. The 2-stroke fuel is 2 years old, and still works just fine.
One ATV has a snow plow, so it gets run fairly frequently during the winter. the other pretty much sit all winter. No problems.
The generator and air compressor usually don't get run much in the winter, because they are nearly impossible to start when the oil gets thick, and I always forget to change to a lighter oil before the cold weather sets in. They always start no problem when the weather warms up, though.

DiskDoctr wrote:

Every year we have to deal with all the damage from ethanol gas. Additives, draining, rebuilding carbs, etc.

I must be doing something wrong then. In all the years E10 has been mandated for SE WI, I have never had to use additives, rebuild carbs, nor have I had any other damage from E10 to any small engines, or big ones for that matter. I also don't know anyone who has had to deal with any of this either. Maybe it's the additives you are using?

MrWizard wrote:

but most of this 'argument' has had no studies, no numbers ,presented
just 'emotion' in misstated logic

Exactly!

Turtle n Peeps wrote:
But to say things like alky puts out less power than gasoline is silly. Or to say things like E10 puts out more smog than pure gasoline is really silly!

Very nice post! Far too much speculation and emotion on both sides of the issue.