Interesting read. If you want to pull a fifth wheel with a medium or heavy truck your fueling situation just improved. Probably future bus conversions as well. They are also adding CCS chargepoints for lighter vehicles although under a different program. Times are a changing. https://insideevs.com/news/628605/pilot-stations-fast-chargers-ev-trucks/amp/

It seems like the fan base for EVs has become nearly cult-like, but what about the human rights abuses? What about all the adults and children forced into slavery by the Chinese owners of the cobalt mines in the Congo?We're supposed to believe that it's all unicorns and rainbows, but purchasing an EV is literally supporting slavery. Is everyone OK with this?If you're on the fence and considering buying an EV, check out Cobalt Red: How the Blood of the Congo Powers Our Lives and/or listen to Joe Rogan's recent interview with Siddharth Kara.This isn't some abstract concept. It's forced child labor and adult slavery, practices our so-called advanced societies have sworn to stomp out. But instead we let the green movement propel us into committing to a technology that we know deep inside ourselves is wrong. There are no unicorns. And there aren't any rainbows for the slaves in the cobalt mines.The smugness of the electric vehicle owners is based upon lies after lies. And we're all expected to buy into it without questioning anything.Mr. & Mrs. Reisender: I've been reading your posts for years now and I consider you to be highly intelligent and somewhat thoughtful, but I was surprised by your response to a well thought-out challenge to EV technology last week:Reisender wrote:Unfortunately I am not knowledgeable in any of those areas so can’t really contribute an intelligent comment.For someone who has researched the tech as much as you have, I can't believe that you haven't researched the counterpoints. This tells me that either your bias is preventing you from doing the research or you actually HAVE done the research and don't want to admit that there are many valid obstacles that still need to be overcome.We treat the pros as if there are no cons. We pretend that it's a black and white issue, but it's full of nuances and consequences that we aren't allowing ourselves to discuss.But there's no nuance to slavery. Nobody is sort of enslaved or kind of free. History won't be kind to our generation for pretending this is all OK. The hypocrisy is unacceptable.(Disclaimer: Cobalt Red isn't available for a few more weeks. I've pre-ordered it, but I haven't read it. I've listened to the author's interview and read articles, but I haven't read his book. I assume the book only underscores his points though. Time will tell.)

YouTube link:The Disturbing Reality of Cobalt Mining for Rechargeable Batteries

Yah, child labour sucks. But one needs to zoom back a bit to get a better picture. One of the prime uses of cobalt for the last 50 or 60 years has been the refining of gas and diesel. Nobody really cared about the mining practices of cobalt until it was utilized in EV batteries. Certainly it has been used in batteries in hand held devices for decades as well. Again, no one cared. On the plus side, the two biggest manufacturers of EV’s are BYD and Tesla. Each produce more than half of the EV’s they make with zero cobalt as they use LFP batteries. Both Ford and Rivian are offering models next year with zero cobalt as well. Bottom line, the EV industry continues to us less cobalt in their batteries. However, if one is against any form of cobalt use then park that ICE car and buy a Tesla RWD model Y or 3. You’ll feel better knowing no cobalt was used.

Reisender wrote:Yah, child labour sucks. But one needs to zoom back a bit to get a better picture.One of the prime uses of cobalt for the last 50 or 60 years has been the refining of gas and diesel. Nobody really cared about the mining practices of cobalt until it was utilized in EV batteries. Certainly it has been used in batteries in hand held devices for decades as well. Again, no one cared. On the plus side, the two biggest manufacturers of EV’s are BYD and Tesla. Each produce more than half of the EV’s they make with zero cobalt as they use LFP batteries. Both Ford and Rivian are offering models next year with zero cobalt as well. Bottom line, the EV industry continues to us less cobalt in their batteries. However, if one is against any form of cobalt use then park that ICE car and buy a Tesla RWD model Y or 3. You’ll feel better knowing no cobalt was used.Wow. Just wow. I'm forming a new opinion of you.You realize that the demand for EVs is causing these operations to expand, right? So more demand means more slavery, right?But since we've evidently always had slavery, what's the harm? At least that's how I'm interpreting your post.I get it though. It's hard for anyone to claw their way out of their bias. We all have a bias to one degree or another. Yours seems to be stronger than I thought though.By the way, I take back the "thoughtful" comment I made before. I still believe that you're extremely intelligent, but thoughtful people don't rationalize slavery.

dedmiston wrote:Reisender wrote:Yah, child labour sucks. But one needs to zoom back a bit to get a better picture.One of the prime uses of cobalt for the last 50 or 60 years has been the refining of gas and diesel. Nobody really cared about the mining practices of cobalt until it was utilized in EV batteries. Certainly it has been used in batteries in hand held devices for decades as well. Again, no one cared. On the plus side, the two biggest manufacturers of EV’s are BYD and Tesla. Each produce more than half of the EV’s they make with zero cobalt as they use LFP batteries. Both Ford and Rivian are offering models next year with zero cobalt as well. Bottom line, the EV industry continues to us less cobalt in their batteries. However, if one is against any form of cobalt use then park that ICE car and buy a Tesla RWD model Y or 3. You’ll feel better knowing no cobalt was used.Wow. Just wow. I'm forming a new opinion of you.You realize that the demand for EVs is causing these operations to expand, right? So more demand means more slavery, right?But since we've evidently always had slavery, what's the harm? At least that's how I'm interpreting your post.I get it though. It's hard for anyone to claw their way out of their bias. We all have a bias to one degree or another. Yours seems to be stronger than I thought though.By the way, I take back the "thoughtful" comment I made before. I still believe that you're extremely intelligent, but thoughtful people don't rationalize slavery.Agreed. But you are also okay with it or you wouldn’t be driving an ice. Again, if it’s bothering you that much (and it obviously is) go buy an EV that doesn’t use cobalt and park your ice vehicle that is. Anyway, feel free to open a new topic discussing your concern with cobalt use in the petroleum industry, medical field and EV industry. This thread is about charging facilities at Flying J and Pilot that may benefit RVers. Cheers.

Flying J / Pilot to install megachargers for med/heavy trks

Grit_dog
Navigator
Jan 05, 2023
Reisender know I wasn’t targeting you in particular and I tried to make it clear the names were just hypothetical folks on both sides of the argument. No offense meant.
You’ve been nothing but straightforward but in my example there are many/most on the EV side that are blinded by the idealism and ignorant or at least not admitting of the whole story.
And I’ve said this 100 times. I’d drive an EV all day if it made sense.
But it doesn’t and it just gets annoying when people gush over things like this and have no clue as to what other considerations need to be made and frankly don’t care because it would make them look silly.
Reisender
Nomad
Jan 05, 2023
Grit dog wrote:
Reisender know I wasn’t targeting you in particular and I tried to make it clear the names were just hypothetical folks on both sides of the argument. No offense meant.
You’ve been nothing but straightforward but in my example there are many/most on the EV side that are blinded by the idealism and ignorant or at least not admitting of the whole story.
And I’ve said this 100 times. I’d drive an EV all day if it made sense.
But it doesn’t and it just gets annoying when people gush over things like this and have no clue as to what other considerations need to be made and frankly don’t care because it would make them look silly.

Appreciate the post.

Safe travels.
cptqueeg
Explorer II
Jan 05, 2023
Grit dog wrote:
Ha, just read this!
Yes the logistics of OTR electric semis is mind boggling for many reasons, including regulatory limitations on drivers. But that is just one of many huge hurdles. And it’s still laughable at this point.
To comment on the Ill call it Reisender vs Dedmiston debate (only for simiplicity), Reisender as nice of a feller as he is, has repeatedly, like YS1 and others been very good at stopping their level of “understanding” at very convenient spots where delving further would not support their arguments or beliefs.
You can say that about anyone technically, however it is a prevalent if not the most prevalent general trait of (can I say {snip}?) a certain political and social affiliation.
Like take the cobalt example. I can get on the internet and it tells me 1lb of cobalt is used to refine 80,000 gallons of gasoline, or enough gas to fuel 10ea 30mpg cars for 350k miles each.
Then I can read that it takes between 6-15kg of cobalt per EV battery. Do the math and see that even with a little number fudging each way, there is orders of magnitude more cobalt being used in electronics and the mega batteries like for cars are obviously using waaaaay more than to make gasoline.
The Reisender YS1 camp will just say “well that’s over my head, but I’m saving the world!!” As they hop on their unicorn and fly away into the sunset convinced that they are morally superior, all while ignoring anything thst is inconvenient to think about or admit.

Now the Dedmiston’s (all of us, remember names were only used to differentiate the 2 camps here) sure, we kinda do the same. We buy china garbage and we have cell phones etc. We’re not “perfect”. BUT here’s the big difference…… wait for it……

MATH!!
Dedmiston’s can see that even if half of the EVs don’t use cobalt , whether that’s true or not, if the basic numbers are within a realm of reasonableness, EVs easily use over 100x the amount!

Carry on!

No credit for using math until you show your work.

What you've written is based on assumptions and presumptions and has nothing to do w math. Compare the scale of EV's produced vs the amount of gasoline consumed and get back to us on total amount of cobalt used. And just one other thing to consider is the potential to recycle the EV batts and the cobalt they contain.

And while we're using batts to carry electrical energy at the moment once roads are electrified there won't be near the need for big batteries as this process continues.
TechWriter
Explorer
Jan 05, 2023
cptqueeg wrote:
. . . once roads are electrified there won't be near the need for big batteries as this process continues.

Currently (no pun intended) that's about $2M per mile. When pigs fly.
Grit_dog
Navigator
Jan 05, 2023
cptqueeg wrote:

No credit for using math until you show your work.

What you've written is based on assumptions and presumptions and has nothing to do w math. Compare the scale of EV's produced vs the amount of gasoline consumed and get back to us on total amount of cobalt used. And just one other thing to consider is the potential to recycle the EV batts and the cobalt they contain.

And while we're using batts to carry electrical energy at the moment once roads are electrified there won't be near the need for big batteries as this process continues.

ROFL, I'm not sue of which of your statements to laugh harder at...
But allow me to help you out...
I gave the numbers (idk if they're right, jsut like the rest of yall don't know what youre claiming based on your super sleuth searches on the web). We aren't getting into a "cite your sources" discussion I hope. But whatever.
If you can't do the math with the numeros I actually did include, then you're, umm, cant say that word, umm, cant talk about IQ....we will just say you're either simple or obtuse...

Regarding more gas cars than EVs on the road affecting the total numbers....I'll just leave that one alone, because I now know you're either clueless or have an agenda. But I will say apples to apples....think about it.

And you let us know how the ole induction charging technology and infrastructure is coming along....LOL!
Grit_dog
Navigator
Jan 05, 2023
TechWriter wrote:
cptqueeg wrote:
. . . once roads are electrified there won't be near the need for big batteries as this process continues.

Currently (no pun intended) that's about $2M per mile. When pigs fly.

Maybe right next to the nuke plant in the middle of Cornhole, Kansas, for the induction elements only.
He!!, I build roads that are over $100M/mile, not including the slot car track!
shelbyfv
Explorer
Jan 05, 2023
Here's one for the big brain math whizzes. Say your feet are chilly, you want to put on some socks. You have wool and cotton. You have 5 pair of wool and two pair of cotton. The wool are warmer and you have a good supply. But but but.... you've become allergic and the wool will cause a terrible rash. The docs say it will turn to gangrene and kill you. Which pair do you choose? Let's just stipulate that hoping for a pair of polyester to show up isn't an option.:h
MFL
Nomad II
Jan 05, 2023
Shelby...that is going to be a tough decision, gonna take some thought.

The part I'm missing...math has nothing to do with solving this problem.

Jerry
shelbyfv
Explorer
Jan 05, 2023
5 vs 2? I keep reading "math math math" (though more accurately arithmetic) so I figured I'd get on board. As you noticed the number of pairs in the drawer is probably irrelevant to the solution.
ronharmless
Explorer
Jan 05, 2023
I put the cotton on first and put the wool over top of them.