Interesting read. If you want to pull a fifth wheel with a medium or heavy truck your fueling situation just improved. Probably future bus conversions as well. They are also adding CCS chargepoints for lighter vehicles although under a different program. Times are a changing. https://insideevs.com/news/628605/pilot-stations-fast-chargers-ev-trucks/amp/

It seems like the fan base for EVs has become nearly cult-like, but what about the human rights abuses? What about all the adults and children forced into slavery by the Chinese owners of the cobalt mines in the Congo?We're supposed to believe that it's all unicorns and rainbows, but purchasing an EV is literally supporting slavery. Is everyone OK with this?If you're on the fence and considering buying an EV, check out Cobalt Red: How the Blood of the Congo Powers Our Lives and/or listen to Joe Rogan's recent interview with Siddharth Kara.This isn't some abstract concept. It's forced child labor and adult slavery, practices our so-called advanced societies have sworn to stomp out. But instead we let the green movement propel us into committing to a technology that we know deep inside ourselves is wrong. There are no unicorns. And there aren't any rainbows for the slaves in the cobalt mines.The smugness of the electric vehicle owners is based upon lies after lies. And we're all expected to buy into it without questioning anything.Mr. & Mrs. Reisender: I've been reading your posts for years now and I consider you to be highly intelligent and somewhat thoughtful, but I was surprised by your response to a well thought-out challenge to EV technology last week:Reisender wrote:Unfortunately I am not knowledgeable in any of those areas so can’t really contribute an intelligent comment.For someone who has researched the tech as much as you have, I can't believe that you haven't researched the counterpoints. This tells me that either your bias is preventing you from doing the research or you actually HAVE done the research and don't want to admit that there are many valid obstacles that still need to be overcome.We treat the pros as if there are no cons. We pretend that it's a black and white issue, but it's full of nuances and consequences that we aren't allowing ourselves to discuss.But there's no nuance to slavery. Nobody is sort of enslaved or kind of free. History won't be kind to our generation for pretending this is all OK. The hypocrisy is unacceptable.(Disclaimer: Cobalt Red isn't available for a few more weeks. I've pre-ordered it, but I haven't read it. I've listened to the author's interview and read articles, but I haven't read his book. I assume the book only underscores his points though. Time will tell.)

YouTube link:The Disturbing Reality of Cobalt Mining for Rechargeable Batteries

Yah, child labour sucks. But one needs to zoom back a bit to get a better picture. One of the prime uses of cobalt for the last 50 or 60 years has been the refining of gas and diesel. Nobody really cared about the mining practices of cobalt until it was utilized in EV batteries. Certainly it has been used in batteries in hand held devices for decades as well. Again, no one cared. On the plus side, the two biggest manufacturers of EV’s are BYD and Tesla. Each produce more than half of the EV’s they make with zero cobalt as they use LFP batteries. Both Ford and Rivian are offering models next year with zero cobalt as well. Bottom line, the EV industry continues to us less cobalt in their batteries. However, if one is against any form of cobalt use then park that ICE car and buy a Tesla RWD model Y or 3. You’ll feel better knowing no cobalt was used.

Reisender wrote:Yah, child labour sucks. But one needs to zoom back a bit to get a better picture.One of the prime uses of cobalt for the last 50 or 60 years has been the refining of gas and diesel. Nobody really cared about the mining practices of cobalt until it was utilized in EV batteries. Certainly it has been used in batteries in hand held devices for decades as well. Again, no one cared. On the plus side, the two biggest manufacturers of EV’s are BYD and Tesla. Each produce more than half of the EV’s they make with zero cobalt as they use LFP batteries. Both Ford and Rivian are offering models next year with zero cobalt as well. Bottom line, the EV industry continues to us less cobalt in their batteries. However, if one is against any form of cobalt use then park that ICE car and buy a Tesla RWD model Y or 3. You’ll feel better knowing no cobalt was used.Wow. Just wow. I'm forming a new opinion of you.You realize that the demand for EVs is causing these operations to expand, right? So more demand means more slavery, right?But since we've evidently always had slavery, what's the harm? At least that's how I'm interpreting your post.I get it though. It's hard for anyone to claw their way out of their bias. We all have a bias to one degree or another. Yours seems to be stronger than I thought though.By the way, I take back the "thoughtful" comment I made before. I still believe that you're extremely intelligent, but thoughtful people don't rationalize slavery.

dedmiston wrote:Reisender wrote:Yah, child labour sucks. But one needs to zoom back a bit to get a better picture.One of the prime uses of cobalt for the last 50 or 60 years has been the refining of gas and diesel. Nobody really cared about the mining practices of cobalt until it was utilized in EV batteries. Certainly it has been used in batteries in hand held devices for decades as well. Again, no one cared. On the plus side, the two biggest manufacturers of EV’s are BYD and Tesla. Each produce more than half of the EV’s they make with zero cobalt as they use LFP batteries. Both Ford and Rivian are offering models next year with zero cobalt as well. Bottom line, the EV industry continues to us less cobalt in their batteries. However, if one is against any form of cobalt use then park that ICE car and buy a Tesla RWD model Y or 3. You’ll feel better knowing no cobalt was used.Wow. Just wow. I'm forming a new opinion of you.You realize that the demand for EVs is causing these operations to expand, right? So more demand means more slavery, right?But since we've evidently always had slavery, what's the harm? At least that's how I'm interpreting your post.I get it though. It's hard for anyone to claw their way out of their bias. We all have a bias to one degree or another. Yours seems to be stronger than I thought though.By the way, I take back the "thoughtful" comment I made before. I still believe that you're extremely intelligent, but thoughtful people don't rationalize slavery.Agreed. But you are also okay with it or you wouldn’t be driving an ice. Again, if it’s bothering you that much (and it obviously is) go buy an EV that doesn’t use cobalt and park your ice vehicle that is. Anyway, feel free to open a new topic discussing your concern with cobalt use in the petroleum industry, medical field and EV industry. This thread is about charging facilities at Flying J and Pilot that may benefit RVers. Cheers.

Flying J / Pilot to install megachargers for med/heavy trks

Lantley
Nomad
Jan 06, 2023
At this point EV vs ICE is not about math or engineering.
Elon has shown it can be done.
The debate is more finances. Who can win public opinion.
Who will ultimately control the profits

I see the whole going green movement as part of the propaganda to eliminate fossil fuels.
Exxon and those that will suffer financially are not going to just go away and cede to renewable energy.
We can pick ice vs. EV or Fossil vs. Renewable.
But the battle is between old established money the future captains of industry.
The old money will try to slow things down and hang on as long as possible.
Hopefully we all can see change is coming. EV's and renewable energy is our future.
Yes there are issues but the Cobalt slave trade will not hinder things.
Chinese workers do not enjoy the same protections as U.S. workers, but that has not slowed Apple or Nike.
I won't agree or disagree on the existence of the Cobalt slaves but at the end of the day the western world turns a blind eye in the same way we ignore Mid East atrocities in the name of oil.
The energy revolution is just in its infancy, old money will hold on as long as they can (It will take years). Both sides will push propaganda through the media and politically. In the end change is coming. There is nothing insurmountable holding back the energy revolution.
Infrastructure, battery tech, raw materials are all more a matter of time and money vs. a dead end.
kwplot34
Explorer
Jan 07, 2023
All EV's should be charged by either solar or wind power, otherwise the owners of EV's are just pretending.

Carry on.
Lantley
Nomad
Jan 07, 2023
kwplot34 wrote:
All EV's should be charged by either solar or wind power, otherwise the owners of EV's are just pretending.

Carry on.

I would add nuclear and hydroelectric power to the mix
Grit_dog
Navigator
Jan 07, 2023
Lantley wrote:
kwplot34 wrote:
All EV's should be charged by either solar or wind power, otherwise the owners of EV's are just pretending.

Carry on.

I would add nuclear and hydroelectric power to the mix

Nope sorry, spent uranium is bad for the environment, hydro kills salmon and if you include wind power in the mix the enviros say it apparently kills bald eagles. (Which is funny because the bald Eagle population is huge, even if a windmill killed and eagle or 10, they are certainly thriving).
And that’s where the hypocrisy of the Left siders is soooo flawed. Which I feel both of you agree with. Just making a funny here!
wapiticountry
Explorer
Jan 07, 2023
Lantley wrote:
kwplot34 wrote:
All EV's should be charged by either solar or wind power, otherwise the owners of EV's are just pretending.

Carry on.

I would add nuclear and hydroelectric power to the mix

Salmon disagree with the premise hydroelectric dams are environmentally friendly.
map40
Explorer
Jan 07, 2023
That's it, I am tired of people posting nonsense with no idea. Half of you got the wrong information, the other half read the information wrong. I have been in the Cobalt and Lithium mines in South America and Africa. Almost all the ones I saw were OK. I am sure there is somewhere one in which somebody went to film some awful footage, but please, the video of the Joe Rogan Experience is not even close to the operations I saw.
Then we also need 1lb of cobalt to refine 80k gallons of fuel, and comparing how much cobalt an EV uses? What the heck are you taking about? That has nothing to do with the subject, and all of the numbers are obsoletely wrong and completely out of context.
Here it is how it goes. Cobalt is produced is a good way and in a bad way. And it is used in a lot of processes. And the EV industry is trying to avoid it because Cobalt free batteries are more forgiving, thermally speaking. They don't care about the Cobalt mining, just like you didn't care about Cobalt mining before EVs when Cobalt mining existed already.
You are all talking about politics, not technology. I have had EVs for over 10 years, and at the same time a Lincoln town car with a V8 and a 4 speed transmission, Cartier L, sold it with 530K miles. The worst gas eating car you can have. Why? BECAUSE EV USERS ARE NOT NECESAIRLY GREEN PEACE ACTIVISTS.
This is easy, if having an EV is cheaper and more convenient, we are going to have EVs. If having Hydrogen cars is cheaper and convenient, we are going to be driving hydrogen cars.
Stop the hypocrisy, you are typing in a Chinese made computer with a Malasyan made phone with software developed in India all running on batteries that contain more cobalt that an entire F150 lightning!!!
There you are, sitting typing while waiting on an Amazon package instead of going to the local store. Even wearing gold or diamonds from Africa.
Stop thinking the EVs are bad, and that people who drive them have a particular ideology, because they don't. And stop believing what you hear and read from ridiculous sources, they just lie to you so you read and eventually they make money from you.
run100
Explorer
Jan 21, 2023
We own a hybrid that gets 42-mpg and completely love it! It's quiet, economical and a pleasure to drive. Trying to determine where and how everything we own or consume is made, and under what conditions, is beyond my ability.

Add on top of that the never ending lies and attempts to manipulate the population, not based on facts, but to accomplish ones own quest for power and money, regardless of reality or the impact on others. Again, that's a lot to sift through! I'm just trying to make it through each work day and put food on the table!
Gjac
Explorer III
Jan 22, 2023
There seems to be a lot of peripheral arguments both for and against EV's. As run100 just posted above its hard to get all the facts about EV's, but to me math does not lie. So, if you look at it in simple terms and compare apples to apples most EV's that I have looked at take 30 KW's to drive 100 miles. In my state they just raised my electric rate to 33 cents per KW. So, to drive 100 miles in an EV it cost $9.90. My Rav4 hybrid gets 42 MPGs on average, so it takes 2.4 gals to drive 100 miles. At $3.00/gal that is $7.20 at $4.00/gal that is $9.60. That is not cheaper for me where I live. When I looked at a tesla several years ago, I plotted a trip to Florida. Their GPS gives you all the charging stations along the way. They varied from 34 to 50 cents /KW which I'm sure by now they have gone up also. At 50 cents a KW it would cost $15 for every 100 you travel. $225 from CT to Florida vs $144 in my RAV4 at $4.00/gal. So, unless you live in a low-cost state, have access to free charging and don't drive long trips where you need a fast charger, to me an EV is not cheaper to drive.
Reisender
Nomad
Jan 22, 2023
Gjac wrote:
There seems to be a lot of peripheral arguments both for and against EV's. As run100 just posted above its hard to get all the facts about EV's, but to me math does not lie. So, if you look at it in simple terms and compare apples to apples most EV's that I have looked at take 30 KW's to drive 100 miles. In my state they just raised my electric rate to 33 cents per KW. So, to drive 100 miles in an EV it cost $9.90. My Rav4 hybrid gets 42 MPGs on average, so it takes 2.4 gals to drive 100 miles. At $3.00/gal that is $7.20 at $4.00/gal that is $9.60. That is not cheaper for me where I live. When I looked at a tesla several years ago, I plotted a trip to Florida. Their GPS gives you all the charging stations along the way. They varied from 34 to 50 cents /KW which I'm sure by now they have gone up also. At 50 cents a KW it would cost $15 for every 100 you travel. $225 from CT to Florida vs $144 in my RAV4 at $4.00/gal. So, unless you live in a low-cost state, have access to free charging and don't drive long trips where you need a fast charger, to me an EV is not cheaper to drive.

It’s a good point. Some regions are cheaper than others for electric and gas. Although it’s dirt cheap to drive electric over gas where we are that’s obviously not the case everywhere.

Having said that many people buy EV’s for other reasons such as performance, tech and convenience not to mention the completely different driving experience. Not the right fit for everybody though. Everybody has different needs and wants.
map40
Explorer
Jan 22, 2023
run100 wrote:
We own a hybrid that gets 42-mpg and completely love it! It's quiet, economical and a pleasure to drive. Trying to determine where and how everything we own or consume is made, and under what conditions, is beyond my ability.

Add on top of that the never ending lies and attempts to manipulate the population, not based on facts, but to accomplish ones own quest for power and money, regardless of reality or the impact on others. Again, that's a lot to sift through! I'm just trying to make it through each work day and put food on the table!

Agreed!!! Everybody looks at their side of the equation and figure out their own need. My pocket, my convenience, my decision...