What trumps what when making a TV decision. I'm not a pulling expert by any means but when looking at commercial trucks they always seem to display their GVWR and GCWR. Should I be using these rather than worrying about the advertised towing capacity and payload. What is the order of importance. I would assume:GVWRGCWRPayloadTowing Capacity (only most trucks will run out of payload before they ever reach their advertised towing capacity).

First of all, if you load the truck in such a way that the axle is overloaded, you risk immediate tire blow-out. Some towing a fifth wheel or with a slide on camper have more weight on the rear axle than they think, and overload the tires. If you do not exceed the GVWR, then you likely are not overloading either of the axles, there is a lot of extra capacity built into them. In other words a truck might have a 6000 pound rear axle and 4,800 pound rated front axle with a 8,800 GVWR. The GCVWR more has to do with how reliable the vehicle will be while towing, and how the transmission will hold up to that sort of load, radiator, and of course brakes.A truck with a manual transmission might have a much lower GCVWR because the engineers think "They might need to start this whole 15,000 pound load on a hill someday, and can not slip the clutch to much, so 18,000 pounds is out of the question, but this amount of weight works in testing." A truck with a higher curb weight will be better at towing and stopping a given load. So that if your trailer power cord falls out of the plug in, I would much rather be in a dually truck with engine braking, than in a 1/2 ton where the trailer is 75% of the total weight of truck/trailer combo. Or you could have that problem where the trailer brakes fail due to short circuit or tripped fuse. Still the winner is the larger truck with much larger brakes, and more gravity to help those axles hold to the road.Commercial trucks have to go through weight stations. They display their GVWR and GCVWR because the law requires it, and if they exceed those ratings, while on the scale, they can get a ticket. So you have to consider everything, and make sure you are not exceeding either the GCVWR or GVWR. It is very easy with a fifth wheel to exceed the truck's GVWR without getting close to it's GCVWR. So a 3/4 ton truck with a cargo rating of 1975# might tow a conventional trailer with a 12,000 pound GVWR and 1,200 hitch weight, but could only tow a 8,000 pound fifth wheel with a 1,500 pound hitch weight. Loaded the fifth wheel might be over 2,000 pounds hitch weight. ..Many think that a 3/4 ton is 'fine' for towing anything. Ask the salesman at the GM or Dodge dealership! They will tell you 'it can tow anything'. Sure it can, but will exceed it's GVWR in the process. A much better truck would be the 3500 SRW or DRW, or the F-350 or dually version F-350. The dually versions can carry around 5,000 pounds in most modern trucks, built after 2005. They also have GCVWR that are huge compared to their single rear wheel cousins, and much higher than the 1/2 ton look-a-likes. The higher GCVWR is not just the largest engine, it is also better transmission cooling, and especially more radiator, and larger brakes!There is a new tow rating certified and rated by independent reviews, where they take a 'typical' truck and tow a large trailer up a 7% grade from Bullhead City to the top of the hill. If it can make it to the top at 80F outside air temps, and at a minimum speed, then they can 'pass' as being able to tow that much weight.It really stresses the transmission, radiator, and engine to the max! I think you will see a lot lower weight claims as a result. Many 1/2 ton trucks do not have a large enough radiator to meet the demands of producing 200 HP for 15 minutes in a row. Sure the radiator will not overheat while making 300 HP for the time it takes to get the truck from 0 to 75MPH and onto the freeway, but that is 300 HP for 15 seconds, and will hardly warm up the engine. Run it at 200 HP while pulling a 7,500 pound trailer up a 7% grade for 10 minutes, it is a totally different story, and will overheat a truck with a radiator that is to small, or ones that have electric fans for cooling it. Fred.

I would pay most attention to the GVWR and Payload numbers. Then I would also pay close attention to the axle and tire loading numbers. I would totaly ignore the Towing capacity number.I towed slighly over my GCWR (although under all other numbers) for quite a few years and never had a problem. I think that number is mostly for warranty purposes. My truck now has about 250,000+ miles on it and still works and looks like a new one. Barney

Payload capacity is the important one, esp. if it's a 1/2 ton TV. As you say, it's quite common to run out of payload capacity well before max. tow & GCWR. Vehicle manufacturers all love to brag about towing capacity and be silent on payload capacity, although I *think* that may be starting to change a bit. You should still look at GCWR and tow capacity, but it's likely to be payload that's the issue for a TT. GVWR is set by the manufacturer and the figure to use to calculate payload capacity. If you have a FW, you'd be wanting to look at the RAWR and scale weight on your drive axle.It's a good idea to take your TV to a scale and then subtract the weight from the GVWR on your door pillar sticker. Some find that their payload capacity is less than the figure on the door pillar sticker and there has been talk that Ford and GM have been fudging their curb weights to make payload capacity higher. The payload capacity of our F250 is a lot less than the sticker amount. Accessories also add weight (canopy for ex.) and take away payload capacity. If going to a scale, you want to be all loaded up as you would for a camping trip - kids, spouse, pets, groceries, camping gear and firewood in the back, etc. plus a full tank of fuel. When it comes to looking at a TT (or FW), do not calculate the payload on your TV based on the RV manufacturers dry weights.

Decide if you believe in the specifications, limits and RATINGs firstIf not, then do whatever like so many do, but know that you have taken the OEM off the warranty and liability hook.If yes, then note that there is a 'R' in GCWR, as it is in all 'ratings' specificationsIt is called 'margin' to engineers and to the public 'safety margin'. Heaped in that are many, many things. One is longevity (warranty). Performance is anotherand safety is baked into itPerformance also includes braking...that many do NOT believe is part of performancePerformance also has the ability to manhandle the setup within some predeterminedspecification. Not at the minimums, but at the maximums of the spec.Meaning fully loaded to the GVWR/GAWRs/GCWR, at max speed, at maxambient conditions, etc, etc, etc...it has to be able to stop withinthe spec and not just once...but as many times as the spec states...etc, etc, etcAll of the 'RATINGs' has design specifications and testing. To finally agency certification testing.Again, most don't believe in this. A few of my past careers were both as designerand project/program management of design teams. Why I'm a believer, as I usedto have to toe the line to my corporation, insurance and agencies. No automotivebut industrial controls and have been sued personally 4 separate times for wrongful deaths...none went to trail, as my insurance took my documentationto the other side and showed them the futility of their claimsPersonally because my name is on most doc's as designed by, drawn by, checked by, approved by...and partner in the small controls company, etc

Gas or diesel, TT or 5er? A lot of variables. Guess that's why they make a lot of options.Diesels it will mostly come down to how much load the rear tires can handle.Gas depends on engine size, rear end ratios, tires, load and extra cooling required. Tires concern me the most. If you blow one your cost could be just a $100 bill for new rubber or a life.

GVWR, Payload, Towing Capacity or GCWR | Good Sam Community

27 Replies

APT
Explorer
Aug 21, 2014
Ron Gratz wrote:
jaydub74 wrote:
---To my knowledge there is no way to know the actual weight of a truck on the lot including its options.

Vehicle weight (as built by the assembly plant) is equal to
GVWR (as stated on the Safety Compliance Certification Lable) minus
the payload (as stated on the TIRE AND LOADING INFORMATION sticker).

Ron

Right. The TREAD Act following the Ford/Firestone rollover debacle mandates each model year 2006+ passenger vehicle must list payload as equipped from vehicle assembler full of all fluids.
Ron_Gratz
Explorer
Aug 21, 2014
BenK wrote:
Key word for me is your 'if it is safe'...so the conservative way if you do NOT
have actual weights is to use the max ratings on this formula:

GCWR (greater than or equal to) TV GVWR + trailer GVWR + misc

Or use it this way to figure the true MTWR:

Trailer (less than or equal to) GCWR + TV GVWR + misc
Ben, in a majority of cases, your "conservative way" could allow the TV's GVWR and/or the receiver's tongue weight rating, and perhaps the rear GAWR, to be exceeded.

GCWR is a measure of what the TV can pull.
GVWR and tongue weight rating are measures of what the TV can carry.
Most TVs reach the limit of what they can carry before reaching the limit of what they can pull.

Ron
AH64ID
Explorer
Aug 21, 2014
Ron Gratz wrote:
jaydub74 wrote:
---To my knowledge there is no way to know the actual weight of a truck on the lot including its options.

Vehicle weight (as built by the assembly plant) is equal to
GVWR (as stated on the Safety Compliance Certification Lable) minus
the payload (as stated on the TIRE AND LOADING INFORMATIN sticker).

Ron

While logical, and probably correct I have never seen my truck even close to 7012lbs.

Hard to tell now with all the bolt-ons, but I have weighed it quite a bit over the years.
Ron_Gratz
Explorer
Aug 21, 2014
jaydub74 wrote:
---To my knowledge there is no way to know the actual weight of a truck on the lot including its options.

Vehicle weight (as built by the assembly plant) is equal to
GVWR (as stated on the Safety Compliance Certification Label) minus
the payload (as stated on the TIRE AND LOADING INFORMATION sticker).

Ron
BenK
Explorer
Aug 21, 2014
Key word for me is your 'if it is safe'...so the conservative way if you do NOT
have actual weights is to use the max ratings on this formula:

GCWR (greater than or equal to) TV GVWR + trailer GVWR + misc

Or use it this way to figure the true MTWR:

Trailer (less than or equal to) GCWR + TV GVWR + misc
jaydub74
Explorer
Aug 21, 2014
Thanks for all the replies.
I guess the issue I run into is I own neither the truck or trailer I'm proposing to purchase. All I can go on is the advertised numbers or door stickers. To my knowledge there is no way to know the actual weight of a truck on the lot including its options. My math based on the advertised numbers looks good but I don't know if its safe.

Josh
badercubed
Explorer
Aug 20, 2014
mkirsch - What's the best CAT scale in the area to go to? Never been, but since I know I am overweight, I'd like to know the real world numbers I am looking at.

Joe
BenK
Explorer
Aug 20, 2014
Totally agree with mkirsch (legality is irrelevant) and add that what I consider
'comfortable' vs others is very different

I've come up on so many that were obviously over weight and swaying across 'my'
lane to remember. Most of them did NOT know they were in danger. Do remember
one couple driving a first gen Explorer towing a trailer that had their headlamps
pointing up into the sky...swaying while they were have a GREAT time eating
pizza out of the box on their dash...took a few miles to finally get past them

I'd have been white knuckling and pulled over to walk...

As for legality...my cousin was a sergeant in the Calif Highway Patrol and he
did carry portable scales. Which he used often to tag overweight setups.

He did get complaints, but every one of his tickets were upheld. Part of why
he quit...one of his troopers disabled for life after walking between two vehicles
and the bumper shocks let go...the last straw was the lifeless infant he found
underneath the dash...

As mkirsch says...it's simple math to figure it out, but you do need actual weights
not the published weights, as they are based/derived from the 'curb'
wandering1
Explorer
Aug 20, 2014
Each is different, all apply equally.
mkirsch
Nomad II
Aug 20, 2014
IMHO we're getting way off track here from the original question. Legality is irrelevant, really. Even if you are running an "illegal" rig the odds of getting pulled over are slim to none unless you are committing some other traffic infraction such as speeding or driving erratically.

Payload, and Tow Rating, are usually advertising numbers based on a specific "ideal" vehicle configuration.

What you need to work with are the four ratings of the vehicle, and the ACTUAL WEIGHTS of the vehicle:

1. GFAWR / FAWR
2. GRAWR / RAWR
3. GVWR
4. GCVWR / GCWR
5. ACTUAL front axle weight
6. ACTUAL rear axle weight

With these six simple values and some simple math you can figure out:

A. How much tongue weight, people, and "stuff" you can load in the truck.
B. How much trailer your truck will tow within its ratings.

IMHO driver comfort is the most important factor when it comes to towing. If you are comfortable driving it, not white-knuckling and nervous, being shaken or bounced until you're physically ill, or screaming and pounding on the steering wheel as you crawl up hills with the engine roaring at 5000 RPM, everything else will fall into place.