How will this affect RVing. Very interesting video.

westend wrote:

hence headlights on, wipers on, plus radio/CD on for music. I've even had my vehicle's battery go almost dead in these conditions because the alternator with an only idling engine couldn't keep up.

This would indicate a problem with the vehicle's charging system and/or battery.

Not if it was a long, long, time ago. (Of course they didn't have CD players back then) My 64 Biscayne had a alternator (before that cars had generators) and I think it put out 40 amps or something like that. Plus, you had to rev the engine up to get that much output from it. I could see a scenario with that car where idling a lot with the fan and lights on would run down the battery. Not much of a battery in that car either. And, it was always out gassing from the caps where you had to frequently add water. This meant that the posts were usually corroded.

What may really be the biggest problem with electric vehicles is that it is likely that battery power is a transitory technology. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the actual future of transportation is either a hydrogen based fuel cell or a technology we haven't even considered.
Until and unless the issues with battery storage, weight and recharge speeds are massively addressed, I think there will be a real reluctance to invest in all the infrastructure that will be necessary to fully convert the transportation fleet. A fully battery based transportation system will require massive upgrades to the electrical grid. It will require a huge commitment in recharging stations, repair facilities as well as facilities to recycle and dispose of the used battery components. As Sony learned, don't bet the house on Betamax, even if it is the best technology when you are at the betting window.

NYCgrrl wrote:
Thought provoking vid that transcends RVing and can change/disrupt our current transportation, energy and mining industries among others.
A well spent hour in my life and thanks for the heads up.

Glad you enjoyed it.

Thought provoking vid that transcends RVing and can change/disrupt our current transportation, energy and mining industries among others.
A well spent hour in my life and thanks for the heads up.

The resistance heat does consume a bit but 1 or 2 Kw is about right unless you wear shorts and a T-shirt at 20F and expect the car roasting. Yes the seat heaters work great. 2Kw would take 5% of my 40Kw battery per hour. Yes it will go to 5Kw when initially heating the car. Initial heating can easily be done at home plugged in manually or with a regular timer to have you ready every morning before you roll.

Unlike gasoline an EV getting stuck in traffic in normal conditions actually increases your range. Stop and go 'idling' takes virtually no power. This will offset some of the additional power used for climate control. Lights and wipers are a nit.

Voltage is about 400 at full charge dropping close to 300 when empty.

Yes range suffers in the cold. If your EV has 200 mile rated range you would be a fool to attempt 160 miles into a snowstorm. Typical commute or getting groceries is a slam dunk. Long distance travel in the cold takes a bit of effort so hop in your other vehicle if needed. Or take the EV to the airport.

The green agenda is a net loss. Sure they have made batteries with more capacity and efficient and Expensive.
Energy is not free and each exchange cycle adds a lot of loss.
Producing electricity is not cheap and eventually you will pay big bucks for electricity or for miles traveled.
then there is range. There are road in Ark, that its is over one hundred miles of hills and valleys, that will cut range of a light weight, small car in half.
Heavy RVs will require half the basement as battery storage. I'm not much of fan for storing high amounts of energy in small packages, liek lithium ion bombs. Impractibilty and ultimately cost. Cost in batteries, cost in energy, cost in replacement and limited capacity as compared to diesel or gasoline, or propane will not fit the requirements or pocketbooks of most people.
I cited Arkansas. How about West Texas and miles and miles without stations and electricity and when you find one stand quarter mile away as you charge 6,000lbs of batteries for hours or maybe an hour which really scares me. Lots of energy transfere in short time into batteries means lots and lots of heat.
Not to mention 100 degree heat on a massive battery pack.
Perhaps in the future I will buy a small electric for close to home, here in the hills which will cut range by half.

pnichols wrote:

John & Angela wrote:
"Assume heater draws 1kw that would consume 1kwh every hour. So it would take 10 hours of parking lot traffic to consume 10kwh of charge (~40 miles of range). In other words, you'd lose ~4 miles for every hour you're stuck in traffic.

That seems way too little to heat an automobile (with no engine radiated heat to help) in 0/10/20/30 degree temps like a lot of the U.S. may experience during winters ... but I haven't done an analysis.

Our car heater really puts out the heat if needed ... way more when needed than the 1500 watt 120V AC heater we use in the RV when on hookups. 1500 watts of resistance heat is around 120 amps of 12 volt RV battery DC power, which of course means that's it's not feasible to run a 1500 watt heater from an RV's battery bank. I don't know what a typical EV lithium battery bank's output voltage is. I'm pretty sure it's much more than 12 volts DC, but even so the amperage coming out of the bank has to be high to run a resistance heater.

It seems like heating an EV on, say, a three hour trip in Northern U.S. winter cold would be a massive drain on it's battery bank. An air-to-air heat pump will reduce the heating (and cooling) load somewhat, but an ATA heat pump will not heat much at all below about 35 degrees F.

Yah. You pretty well nailed it. So the leaf for example uses a heat pump so doesn't use much power till it gets cold at which it uses resistance heat only at 1000 watts. think it would be a bigger draw in very cold weather (electric seats, electric steering wheel) which is why they are not suitable for minus 30 or colder environments. I believe the nissan leaf actually shuts the car down at minus 35. I would recommend a conventional car for those environments. Thankfully where we live in Canada that is not an issue.

Our little two seater does not have a heat pump but just a resistance heater. It's a pretty small cab so easy to keep warm. We also preheat before we leave (just activate from iphone) while it is still plugged in. In colder temps it is best to count on a loss of 1/3 of the range. Buy the car with the range that suits your needs in the worst case sceenario.
By the way, most EV's have electric seats and some steering wheels to save power.

Re the voltage of the battery. It is 403 volts for the leaf and high 300's for the smart.

One other thing. Norway is a cold country. One third of all new car sales (expected to be half this year) are electric vehicles so they obviously work in cold climates.

Hope that helps.

John & Angela wrote:
"Assume heater draws 1kw that would consume 1kwh every hour. So it would take 10 hours of parking lot traffic to consume 10kwh of charge (~40 miles of range). In other words, you'd lose ~4 miles for every hour you're stuck in traffic.

That seems way too little to heat an automobile (with no engine radiated heat to help) in 0/10/20/30 degree temps like a lot of the U.S. may experience during winters ... but I haven't done an analysis.

Our car heater really puts out the heat if needed ... way more when needed than the 1500 watt 120V AC heater we use in the RV when on hookups. 1500 watts of resistance heat is around 120 amps of 12 volt RV battery DC power, which of course means that's it's not feasible to run a 1500 watt heater from an RV's battery bank. I don't know what a typical EV lithium battery bank's output voltage is. I'm pretty sure it's much more than 12 volts DC, but even so the amperage coming out of the bank has to be high to run a resistance heater.

It seems like heating an EV on, say, a three hour trip in Northern U.S. winter cold would be a massive drain on it's battery bank. An air-to-air heat pump will reduce the heating (and cooling) load somewhat, but an ATA heat pump will not heat much at all below about 35 degrees F.

pnichols wrote:

DrewE wrote:
Why, if you're in a dead stop in a rainstorm, would you leave the headlights and wipers on?

The need for that has happened to me many times over the years right here in CA: Chilly pouring down rain in the winter going home on a long commute in the dark ... not a dead stop but a stop-n-go traffic jam for 2-3 hours ... it's heater/fan on, it's hence headlights on, wipers on, plus radio/CD on for music. I've even had my vehicle's battery go almost dead in these conditions because the alternator with an only idling engine couldn't keep up. A rescue vehicle couldn't have got anywhere near all those vehicles jammed up in multiple lanes with almost no shoulder lanes.

In addition to the above, because of the storm sometimes the power would be out all night after I got home and then I'd have a long commute going to work the next morning. I wonder how current EV's would do in these conditions of high battery drain without follow-up recharging before the next use? EV's need larger energy storage capacity for general use on, IMHO.

In all fairness drastically reduced maintenance costs on EV's will be great, as I experienced today when paying a very large repair bill due entirely to our family sedan's engine and braking systems.

So I got some answers back. Heres the numbers and a partial edited (for context) quote from the member that replied.

"Assume heater draws 1kw that would consume 1kwh every hour. So it would take 10 hours of parking lot traffic to consume 10kwh of charge (~40 miles of range). In other words, you'd lose ~4 miles for every hour you're stuck in traffic. Everything else draws only negligible amounts of charge and can be kept on"

Hopefully this sheds some light on the sceenario. I personally think the AC draws more than the heater but I actually don't know. Slightly off point, we use to feel a little guilty about sitting in a drive through line up, you know, idling engine etc. Now not so much. :)

John

hence headlights on, wipers on, plus radio/CD on for music. I've even had my vehicle's battery go almost dead in these conditions because the alternator with an only idling engine couldn't keep up.

This would indicate a problem with the vehicle's charging system and/or battery.