I'm a retired salesman

I echo Go Dogs -- we are on TT #3 and when we bought #1 I was clueless. Sales lady was great and is still great. #2 salesman was competent and fun to deal with. The dealer sent out a brand new salesman on #3 and they regretted that decision. I beat that guy like a rented mule and walked away with a wonderful purchase. I know that if the dealer didn't make a profit they wouldn't do the deal so I'm confident that the only one to take a beating was salesman #3. But I knew what I wanted, what the average markup was and how to keep the negotiations on the new unit and not the trade-in. After awhile I got bored with arguing price so I switched to items they would include as "we-owes" and worked that to my great satisfaction.
The bottom line is too many people walk into negotiations ignorant of the product, the price and the margin and expect the dealer to slice their own throat. Our job is to educate ourselves to know when the deal is 'fair' and to work hard to get it slightly better than fair toward our side.