autoformers for dummies (me)

I am inclined to suggest that is mr tuna wants to stay in a cg that does not allow autoformers he run his on a long cord inside his rig and leave 16 cents in the tip jar ;). But that would probably be evil.

I don't have tanks in my rig. So I don't use the dump station, and don't haul away 100 gallons of fresh water. OTOH, I use the showers and laundry machines, which some other campers don't. Every rig uses cg facilities differently.

PS: It seems unfair to me when I have to pay for showers and laundry, and people who use cg water and elec to run the showers and laundry in their rigs don't. But I knew the deal going in.

Assuming all campground sites are 30 amp service for the purpose of discussion.

Argument in favor of "not stealing": Every rig is entitled to draw 30 amps, enforced by the pedestal breaker, at whatever voltage is available. With the autoformer, you have chosen to have fewer amps at a higher voltage available to your devices. At the pedestal you're still limited to 30 amps at whatever voltage is available. Same as everybody else.

Argument in favor of "stealing": Because of low voltage, every rig will draw fewer amps that they would if the voltage were higher. With the autoformer you've created an unfair advantage for yourself compared to the other campers, and you're drawing more amps than you would without the autoformer.

If you chose the stealing argument, then you have to say that somebody who runs their water heater or fridge on electric is also stealing from those who run it on propane, or somebody who chooses to run the air conditioner is stealing from somebody who doesn't. All IMO of course.

Ok, so it is costing the cg $80 per day. Divided by 500 sites, that is 16 cents per site. If they truly can't afford that overhead, I am pretty sure Mr Tuna would not mind paying the extra 16 cents.

smkettner wrote:
No. Stealing would be drawing power without permission.


JMHO

I have read here that some campgrounds forbid their use.
bumpy

pianotuna wrote:
Hi all,

I've heard folks saying autoformers "steal" power from the campground and hence from other campers. Here is my understanding of what happens.

The total wattage remains the same less about 4% overhead for running the autoformer.

The volts come by swapping amps for volts.

i.e.

Input to autoformer (not including 4% overhead)

100 volts X 12 amps = 1200 watts

Output from the autoformer

120 volts x 10 amps = 1200 watts

I won't run my roof air on low voltage. I chose 1200 watts as an example because that is about where my roof air starts out at. It is also the maximum number of amps for a continuous demand on a 15 amp circuit.

More usually, in real life, I'll be boosting from just below 110 volts to 120 volts, so the "true" numbers would be

Output to RV 118 volts X 10.17 amps =~ 1200 watts

Input required to the autoformer 108 volts X 11.11 amps X 1.04 (overhead on autoformer) = 11.55 amps or ~1248 watts.

See the area I outlined in bold.

Folks that say autoformers are "stealing" or "cheating" the campgrounds power ARE technically correct.

Since a autoformer is not lossless there is 48W MORE power being drawn from the input than what you get from the output..

Put it this way, IF the campground had a power meter on your site YOU would be paying for 1248W but only getting 1200W worth of energy to use..

Now multiply that 48W x the amount of camping spots and it will be pretty apparent that the campground WILL have even a larger loss in costs..

For instance say the campground has 500 spots and EVERYONE decided to use a autoformer, the campground will pay for an additional 24Kw of power per hr use.. for 24 hrs that would be 576 Kwhrs per day the campground would have to pay for!!

My home electric cost me about $.07 per Kwhr (some places pay $.11 per Kwhr) at a residential rate.. That would be a $40.32 per day loss for the campground..

HOWEVER, with electric power you do need to understand that BUSINESSES do not pay residential rates.. They pay at COMMERCIAL RATES which ARE MUCH HIGHER.. Typically commercial power will cost about DOUBLE RESIDENTIAL RATES!

That would mean that my example would now be about $80 PER DAY the campground would pay..

It is for that reason some campgrounds have rules about autoformers..

Put yourself into the shoes of a business owner.. You would not be happy with having your business costs go up.. You would have to take action somewhere to trim costs OR RAISE CAMPING RATES..

Use only what you need.. Don't waste power, water, ect by abusing privileges..

A autoformer won't boost you from 110 to 120V most don't have that much boost.
If you have a surge protector with the low & high cutoff you won't be running your roof AC on lower power then it can handle.

I have had a Hughes(OK), Frank's(Junk) and now no longer available the best of them all a Power Master(very,very good)autoformers all 30AMP.

Power Master Autoformer it has 12% boost.

No. Stealing would be drawing power without permission.

Autoformer just boosts the voltage to the RV specification. I do recommend reducing load as much as practical when boosting. Put fridge and water on propane only. Others with low voltage should do same boosting or not.

JMHO

As I see it, you pay for 30/50 amp, 120 volt service. If the camp ground has low voltage, they are stealing from you. You are just recovering what you pay for with an autoformer.
Consider the cost of the autoformer, legal fees.
You're not the guilty one, it's the campground.
If you neighbor want to continue to pay for service he's not getting, you're not to blame.

Richard

Not being a smart a-- but let me ask this, could everyone in the campground run an auto former at the same time? I'm not real worried about it and not going to use one but it is interesting because there is only so much energy available at the source. Not that you would ever see everyone doing it but just in theory. I dont care if you use one or not and I believe I have even joked with you about it before. I do agree that if we are paying for X we should be getting X.

Yet in another way the whole issue doesn't surprise me, I mean the RV is cheesy as heck so why would where it connects to be any different. :)