Bad Converter Charger

BFL13 wrote:
"all your learning" seems to have missed this--see 5.2.2

https://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/TrojanBattery_UsersGuide.pdf

Our man Mex the battery guru, says this applies to all AGMs, not just Trojans. Lifelines are even more so where they can accept more than 20% in Bulk and ISTR have a "minimum charging rate" too.

Note your solar controller shows amps with loads and while camping you still have loads. You are trying to see only 1 amp for 200AH of batts, so your "parasitic loads" will be close to that. Hard to run the Rv and disconnect the batts entirely while they are being charged! Easy at home.

Rolls likes a 25% charging rate for Bulk but says you can use a lower rate but it will take longer. Wade down half way to the AGM instructions--very interesting!

https://rollsbattery.com/public/docs/user_manual/Rolls_Battery_Manual.pdf

"It is recommended that the initial charge current
is set at 20% of C/20 of the battery bank (min 10% / max 30% of C/20) in order to fully charge the batteries within a reasonable amount of time."

There are several mfg's as you state that show an ideal Charge rate for depleted batteries. This is reasonable to charge up in good timing & to take advantage of AGM lower internal resistance. They state the batteries at a highe charge rate. Trojan claims 20A Max Charge input. Rolls states 10% Min to 30% Max Charge.

The great thing about me is... I can learn new things!
The other great things is we're both not wrong in a way. I think were onto something here...ha ha Let's dig in...

Just spoke to Rolls technical dept. (Very knowledgeable) & you've made a point that I need to re-mention... Sulfating batteries & a doubled edge sword of what your doing.

5-15% Shallow discharges will require, 1-2 times per YEAR, bringing a cycle to 20%-50% to allow a higher current charge, as you mentioned, to keep sulfation down.

Here is the doubled edge sword:

Yes, Sulfation will be kept down w/routine deep discharges as you do. However, Doing it anymore than necessary shortens life cycles. It's a balance that tips in shallow discharges favor.

Based on their statements today your doing way too many intentional discharges for the sake of keeping the sulfation down AT THE EXPENSE OF CYCLE LIFE.

To sum: Your keeping sulfate at bay w/frequent deep cycles BUT your shortening their overall life by doing so anymore than necessary. There is no need to, routinely, discharge the batteries to below 75% SOC to see the 20% recommendation.

If shallow cycling You Only need deep cycle a couple times a year.

The winner: frequent Shallow Discharges w/2 20-50% annual deep cycles to see High currents will keep sulfate down & get you the longest life.

Quit discharging your batteries below 75% SOC so frequently. I need to make sure to discharge mine below 75% SOC a couple times a year. We'll both get the long life we paid for. It's a balance.

Configure the cost

Generator wearout
Fuel including transportation
Intangible: extra time babysitting running generator

Against the money and time installing new batteries

What do you come up with?

Versus saturated voltage bulk charging?

Prepare yourself for a shock.

Charging CONCORDE LIFELINE at their max rate makes their cost worthwhile. Five hours versus ten. Then stare at the several thousand dollars for the generator. Myself, I stare at the thirty two dollars for fuel each time I need to drive to the gas station. Plus time plus hassle

This isn't a set piece evaluation. You need to do your own audit. Yes, half an acre of solar panels is neat until a tropical storm brings a week of dense clouds or golf ball size hail greets glass.

Good research on that talking to Rolls. Helps clarify things.

Another point on deep cycling AGMs is what member LY has reported with his. He finds it gets "tired" after some shallow cycles, and a good deep cycle smartens it right up. He see this when it starts his van better--he uses his a both starting and house batt.

That is akin to "exercising" a flooded deep cycle battery, which is in their specs to do every couple of months at least.

In my case, I don't go below 75% just to do a deep cycle. I do 50-90s while camping off grid with no solar, so I recharge starting in the Bulk stage. I leave the campground in the morning with the batts low and do the recharge to true full at home later that day.

I use those occasions to do the 20%, but first I need to keep the batts low until I get home so they will accept a Bulk stage. That is why I turn off the solar and alternator charging for that trip home.

When off grid for a few weeks on solar, it is all shallow cycling if the sunshine holds. So now you have to create a deep cycle if it can't wait till you get home.

Thanks again for getting that clarification from Rolls.

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
Charging CONCORDE LIFELINE at their max rate makes their cost worthwhile. Five hours versus ten. Then stare at the several thousand dollars for the generator. Myself, I stare at the thirty two dollars for fuel each time I need to drive to the gas station. Plus time plus hassle
This isn't a set piece evaluation. You need to do your own audit. Yes, half an acre of solar panels is neat until a tropical storm brings a week of dense clouds or golf ball size hail greets glass.

Fuel adds up quickly no doubt about it but most enjoy travel.

I have the OE Onan Gen (propane) that came w/the camper.. just adjusted a voltage screw towards the top b/c I noticed it was only putting out 116v under no load & 15 min runtime. I brought it up to 124v the manual recommends. New plug & oil change. 321 hours

My primary gen. (gas) it was $800 new & 50 hours on it so far. I use it to run my A/c at times. no complaints so far.

As for solar... It allows me to stay away from shore power & gen pays for itself as a backup. Even fuel & hassles.

I consider Solar & Modern batteries to be one of our greatest inventions of all time! :C

You mentioned storms (Wind) would it pain you to know I taped all 4 solar panels down to the roof? ha ha Good thing about solar panels is they've come down in price & in the 5 years I've used solar nothing crazy has happened yet. Its weather so it has great forces anything can happen though.

Checked out Lifeline DC & Thought I'd read where they claim over 1000 Cycles @50% if that's true incredible. Put against my current AGM's that claim 700 cycles @50% DOD that cost $180 a Piece LESS according to Amazon prices I just can't see much value in them except for perhaps the "Prorated" warranty after 1st year warranty is over. Basically, I can almost buy 2 of my currents vs 1 Lifeline. Yes, my group 31 batts are "Deep Cycle" designed & weigh over 70lbs.
Lifeline says 0.5% C20 End Absorption at like 14.3v & Rolls says 3% C20 at 14.7v. Interesting. "Conditioning" from lifeline shows 14.88v @ 160F for 8 hours.. Holy Smokes! All these batteries seem solid & informational material they have is priceless for getting them to last under your specific needs.

BFL13 wrote:
Good research on that talking to Rolls. Helps clarify things.

I'm learning!..Ha

BFL13 wrote:
Another point on deep cycling AGMs is what member LY has reported with his. He finds it gets "tired" after some shallow cycles, and a good deep cycle smartens it right up. He see this when it starts his van better--he uses his a both starting and house batt.

This is what is being told to me as "possible sulphation" or just not being fully charged during those Shallow cycles. Maybe both?

BFL13 wrote:
In my case, I don't go below 75% just to do a deep cycle. I do 50-90s while camping off grid with no solar, so I recharge starting in the Bulk stage. I leave the campground in the morning with the batts low and do the recharge to true full at home later that day.

You had me worried there for a bit but now I understand what your doing here. If what your doing is working.. carry on.

BFL13 wrote:
When off grid for a few weeks on solar, it is all shallow cycling if the sunshine holds. So now you have to create a deep cycle if it can't wait till you get home.

When were out overnight I can see about 50% SOC Under Load. I don't think we'll have much trouble. If it isn't the microwave the wife wants to bake a potato for 6 minutes it'll be the future coffee maker bringing it down. :B

BFL13 wrote:
Thanks again for getting that clarification from Rolls.

Thanks for all the help thus far!

Thought I would update this thread to show the outcome. Thanks for all who responded with great information!

I settled on a 45 Amp PD4645V Converter from Liesure Times Dist. (517-554-1586) I Installed this back in July 2020 & all seems to be okay so far.

Out with the Old...



In with the New...

Very nice. You will not go wrong with the 4645.

Not sure what the deal is with Best Converter, they are supposed to know their stuff, but when i asked about replacing a certain WFCO converter in a WFCO panel, they said Progressive didn't make one to directly fit and wanted to steer me to the Boondocker/Powermax. After some research (reading the instructions) I found the PD4600 series DOES replace the WFCO I wanted to replace, you remove the converter from the steel box, use the plastic bar that is provided and slide the converter in place of the WFCO using the plastic bar to lock it in place and THROW AWAY THE STEEL BOX THE PD CAME IN.

Apparently Best Converter has not done a lot of recent research on some of this stuff.

Charles

2x a year n for deep cycle recharge
Once every 6 months
Better info would be the number of shallow cycles allowed between deep discharge & recharge cycle
Camping styles and number of days nights vary per individual
I'm full-time if I followed the 2x year recommendation, it could be 183 days of shallow cycles before a deep cycle recharge,
I do believe that would be too much sulphation buildup
I strive to keep my batteries at or above 70% soc
But there are mornings when when it is significantly less, one morning a few weeks ago it was 46% SOC
I will charge till the meter indicates 1 amp or less charge rate, sometimes because of other uses and wanting to keep the batteries in a top OFF state, until bed time, I will keep going even when there is zero amps charge into the batteries, but I still powering other things, instead of immediately using the inverter and going into load discharge use,
In the last two weeks I have done that 4x, with the power monitor showing zero amps charge rate at 14.x volts, with the converter supplying the lights and parasitic loads, it would take a different setup to register milliamp float charging