Battery Trojan vs. LIfeline

I own UPG AGM batts in some smaller sizes and I've been very pleased with their performance, although to be fair I've never owned a premium-branded batt of any sort.

Almot wrote:

...
$2.90/AH for Trojan AGM is already expensive, but I don't think there is anything cheaper with decent quality (within AGM domain). My Chinese AGM by UPG/Panasonic are $1.80/AH, and I'm not too excited about them.
...

Closest price I've seen to those 12V UPGs is the 105Ah Duracell 31 AGM sold by Sam's Club for US$180 or $1.71/Ah. Believe those are the same as the East Penn Deka Intimidator 31M. Cheapest AGM ($/Ah) that I've seen so far. No idea how good they are; they are heavier per Ah than the Lifelines.

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:

MM49 wrote:

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
I dunno. I sort of like the THOUSAND AMPS overkill for inverter high loading and being able to charge the battery in half the time. The AGM also tolerates 80% discharges a lot better than flooded.

Make up a list of plus and minus features.

When the B2 bomber starts using Trojan AGM then I will feel they are competitive with Concorde's Lifeline. Call Trojan and ask them specs for thickness of positive plates. The Lifeline has .090" plates. And envelope separators. If Concorde gets some serious competition their retail price will drop.

if the battery uses an envelope system it is not an AGM battery. They are not constructed that way. An AGM will use a sheet of sacrificial paper for the envelope function. The positive plate is an expanded red oxide lead plate. AGM batteries use two lead plates per cell.
MM49

Please pick up your telephone and call Concorde right away. They need to learn they cannot keep manufacturing their Absorbed Glass Mat batteries with envelope separators as soon as possible!

Envelope separators just about eliminate plate to plate mossing shorts and mossing shorts is one of the biggest premature death killers of AGM batteries. Other OEMs are just know incorporating envelope separators for their AGM units. I wouldn't doubt that Fullriver has already made the change. Concorde was first and all Mil-Spec batteries MUST have envelope separators.

Think about it? How are you going to achieve the compression in the cell? The lead plates are stacked on a batting type material. It is very hard to align the plate stack. A sacrificial sheet of paper is used on both sides of the stack during the insertion into the cell. The paper will dissolve once the acid hits it. An AGM battery must remain under pressure to operate. If the AGM battery is using envelopes and printed plates it is not a very good AGM battery. You will be defeating the construction of the AGM, absorbed glass mat design.
MM49

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:

Most AGM battery owners DO NOT maintain their batteries correctly. Not even close. Download and study Concorde's user manual for the Lifeline. It applies to all absorbed glass mat batteries.

I have a habit of trying to make use of any rant :), so forgive me for asking/commenting.

First off - AGM manufacturers don't provide any instructions on how to condition/equalize AGM. They don't even mention it. Concorde is the only one that does mention it, and Concorde is a very specific AGM with very low resistance and very high acceptance rate. So I would "assume" that conditioning for other AGMs should be done differently.

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
CAPACITY TESTING MUST BE DONE ON AN INFREQUENT BUT REGULAR BASIS.

Oh yeah. With 10-15A very stable load, unless you want your test to last a week. Bought a 100W 12V bulb, was difficult to find. 8A load. Burned out on the first battery so this was it for testing. Chinese cr-ap. So next time when Mr Lim from Shanghai will phone, tell him to go to hell and take his cr-ap with him.

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:

That BCI group size is hard to find down here. If that battery should fail it can easily cost SEVERAL HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS in hotel fees lost time shipping costs and other incidentals in order to purchase a group 34 battery to replace the failed battery. What type and kind of battery would you choose to use under similar circumstances?

What type and brand? The one that you can buy locally. In one obscure place in Mexico where I live from time to time, many locals are getting solar now that panels are cheap. The problem is - they have no clue when it comes to controllers, wiring or batteries. Somebody connects all this - some car mechanic that can tell Pos from Neg, wires are residential TNN, the whole setup looks horrible but it has to do 'cause there isn't anything better. Batteries are deep cycle wet - some Mexican brand that they have to bring from several hundred miles away. The don't know about "volts" of course, and even the mechanic that can read (not everyone can, in a small town), has no multimeter and uses an automotive bulb with a wire pigtail instead.

I realize that there can be specific needs where wet batts can't be used.

The TOAD battery ALMOT. The group 34 is very difficult to find.

I am and never have specifically endorsed Chinese anything. But when the far east is the exclusive source of stuff then choosing is not an option. I mentioned the introduction of heavy AGM batteries this coming fall as news not an endorsement. I thought I would not need to use "whereas" and "heretofore" language to qualify news.

Here I am looking at three or four comments above from others that all contradict each other: Heavier than the lifeline, yet no room for envelope separators yet lower resistance (closer plate spacing). Lifeline uses LASERS and computers to space plates absolutely even and equal. The last AGM battery I tore into had .055" OEM thickness plates.

Conditioning like equalization is a FORMULA. It is not an edict. When capacity loss is evident (ya know like when X number of ampere hours have been extracted and it is OBVIOUS that capacity has been shortchanged), then conditioning is required or you throw your investment to the wolves. EXACTLY LIKE equalizing a flooded battery if you over-wait forever and a day to recondition an AGM battery you might as well forget it and write the battery off.

TRY WRITING OR TELEPHONING the manufacturer for specific AGM battery type conditioning. Responsible OEMs have application engineers that will be glad to answer your questions.

Cost per kWh hour service rendered continues to be holy writ of battery value.

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
The TOAD battery ALMOT. The group 34 is very difficult to find.

Perhaps some information is missing. It's not often that I hear a car starting batteries measured in "group" size, and/or that they have to be AGM. Anyway, I recall seeing Optima Gr 34 batteries in a (relatively) small town of Vizcaino in Baja Sur where I stopped to get a couple of fuses. Though next decent shop was probably 300 miles away.

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
But when the far east is the exclusive source of stuff then choosing is not an option.

I'm always trying to explore other options first, before going to that "exclusive source". So far, batteries is the only major part of my solar system that was made in China, and I regret buying them already. Abnormally high self-discharge current.

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
Conditioning like equalization is a FORMULA. It is not an edict. ...
TRY WRITING OR TELEPHONING the manufacturer for specific AGM battery type conditioning. Responsible OEMs have application engineers that will be glad to answer your questions.

The problem is that this particular formula has not been written yet. I'll consider calling them, but I'm afraid it will be easier to just go and buy Deka. I would expect the following scenario of this conversation, more-less: "Sir, is your battery AGM? There is no equalization procedure for AGM, this is only for flooded. We can't comment on Concorde, we don't make them. There is no conditioning or equalization procedure in our UPG manual, sir". And so on, you know the drill :)

FLOODED group 34. I'm using this as a example of what a battery failure costs but it covers any essential item.

Ahh Man!

GOOGLE AGM+Condition and you'll get 150,000 hits

Oooooooo look! One is by OPTIMA or maybe more, I have better things to do than sort through a hundred fifty thousand hits.

Mexico is already making a huge percentage of batteries for the US market. Perhaps thirty percent as a guess.

Mention AGM and EQUALIZATION in the same sentence on a telephone call to a battery manufacturer and they will panic. Another uniformed customer ready to crispy-critter one of their batteries still under warranty. Equalization is for flooded batteries, conditioning is for AGM. I have been conditioning AGM batteries for fifteen years. The procedure for any and all is extremely similar to the Lifeline formula.

How in the world senor almot did you decide to purchase Chinese agm batteries? They have at best a spotty record with consumers.

I may be over-the-hill physically but I can assure you I am not yet round-the-bend. Conditioning an AGM battery, ALL AND EVERY TYPE OF AGM is more similar than it is different. Reading specifications off some add then asssssuming and constuing limitless deductions from vague information is not the ideal way to learn about batteries. But arming conversation with such fantasy is a great way to support an argument for it's own sake. Problem is the argument isn't worth one red cent. It merely serves to attempt to confuse third parties who yearn to learn.

Let those "third parties" learn, Mex. Since they want AGM, it's better to know what they are into.

Equalization vs Conditioning: in the Lifeline manual they explain that the former term is applicable to flooded batteries only, but Conditioning is the same procedure. Yes, phone reps will panic when hearing this.

PS: You know what I did when had to replace my dead starter battery in the middle of nowhere? Put the one that could find, size different by few inches. Have no idea what "group", it was old, hard to read any markings. Wrapped a thick wire around - it didn't fit into OEM cradle with clamps. Probably from some farm machinery. Different posts, had to make transition connectors to it. Still running :)

Full River says:

Full River wrote:
If Fullriver batteries are properly charged they should never require an equalizing charge. If they were not properly charged and there is a decrease in capacity, recharge the batteries and make sure they complete the entire charge cycle.

This from http://fullriverdcbattery.com/technical/charging/.

So Lifeline wasn't BSing on the 80% DOD's. And thick plates too. Thanks for the info MEX.