Charging the Lifelines questions
As you all know, anything more than clipping the auto charger onto a battery is well above my pay grade, so I have some questions. For the regular charge before the conditioning charge, the Lifelin...
Forum Discussion
No plug and play charger is going to be able to perfectly meet ideal recharge recommendations for any battery.
Everything is a compromise.
With such an expensive and high quality battery such as a lifeline, aiming to reasonably meet their well defined charging parameters is certainly wise.
I personally feel that meeting and exceeding their 20% rate when cycled to 50% is likely key to their longevity, and that low and slow charging via Solar will simply tickle them to death, even if the low and slow is able to replenish the Amp hours used + some % more to account for inefficiency.
It is my opinion, that returning just the AH used +~10% is not enough and that higher charging rate is quite important and much more so on AGM compared to flooded, and with higher consequences for not achieving regular higher rate recharging, especially when the battery is cycled deeper to the 50% range.
I think the 'capacity is king' mentality with too little charging source accomplishes nothing but the warm and fuzzies, temporarily, and at some point the batteries are going to need the high amp blast and perhaps significant time at voltages prescribed in lifeline's conditioning procedure in order to return anywhere near their 'new' capacity.
I feel this also applied to flooded batteries, but there is less consequence to low and slow and incomplete recharging.
But I don't have Mex's expertise and My experimenting and observations with AGMS are limited, but I do have the interest and some of the tools required to do so.
What I do know is that 100 amps from an alternator could not instantly bring a New and ~50% depleted Lifeline gpl-31XT to 14.4v instantly. After 5 minutes of 86+ amps, voltage had only risen to the 13.3v range.
That is one thirsty AGM battery!
This was well outside my expectations. I thought voltage would rise much faster and amps taper quicker. The amps did taper but only because the alternator shot upto 220F in just a few minutes and I think it has temperature protections built in.
Anyway. I am truly impressed with the lifeline GPL-31xt. I own/ rented a Northstar AGM group 27 which I am also impressed with, but I do not believe it will have anywhere near the deep cycle longevity as a Lifeline when both are recharged properly promptly and fully.
Properly promptly and fully are where the variables lay. Being able to meet the battery requirements is another huge variable, as is the requirements of different Lifelines, such as the Lifeline gpl-31t compared to the gpl-31XT compared to the 8d.
Mex once said his gpl-31t (105 AH) required 92 amps to achieve instant absorption voltage from 50% depletion, if I remember correctly. My gpl-xt (125AH) at 50% took 86+ amps for over 5 minutes and voltage never exceeded 13.4v. I expected to see numbers much closer to Mex's reported experience with his lifeline. It there that much variance between two different capacity batteries of the same physical size, or different methodology or some combination there of?
How much would a healthy Lifeline 8d require for instant absorption voltage? It is likely unachieveable by anything mounted in or on or near an RV, and three of them in parallel? Fuggetaboutit. If they are depleted to 50%, what is their true minimum initial amperage requirement? How much consequence will there be for lesser currents applied every cycle?
We have to go with lifelines 20 amps per 100Ah capacity figure. Can this be accomplished via solar only? Unlikely in the extreme. How will the lower and slower solar ramp up to max power at solar noon do for the 3 paralleled 8d Lifelines? Well JiminDenver will be our guinea pig like it or not, unless of course he gets irritated with us and stops contributing.
Then there is the variable that they are not brand spanking new 8d Lifelines either, and we are not quite sure how they were treated before JID's acquisition.
All we really know, is that more ( charging amps) is better for these high quality AGM's, and we don't truly know what qualifies as adequate. Too often we get the 'I just do this, and it works just fine!" proclamation, but all this means is it has not failed yet in such a regimen, and we also do not know the regimen as all the proclaimer has is a voltmeter and an overwhelming sense of confidence in the products which have not yet failed them.
Guesses are all we have until somebody takes the time to compile some serious data with the proper tools and inspiration to do so.
I did some minor data collecting and observations throughout the lifespan of my Screwy 31 thread, and I learned a huge amount during that process and shared what I could, and Mex's contributions to my understanding thoughout that thread were immeasurable.
The Lifeline I've gotten to play with is not mine. I was basically given an unlimited budget to build the most awesome Lead acid based 'portable' powerpack as I could. I chose A lifeline 125Ah group31, and a PD9245 plug and play charger to feed it, and a well wired alternator to quench the thing when it is away from the grid. It will eventually have solar too, but only enough to offset some usage, not enough to come anywhere close to the 20% rate lifeline dictates.
High rate recharges will be the domain of the alternator and the PD9245, and I expect, if plugged in after any serious outing, for the Lifeline to achieve 800 cycles to 50% dod. The owner has been instructed as best as possible, and does have the interest and desire in keeping this ~2000$ project as happy as possible for as long as possible, and only time will tell. He has asked the right questions and I have outfitted the powerpack with tools to measure amp hours consumed and to also measure charging current.
Frankly, I don't want to give it up to the owner. Hopefully Somebody wants me to build another one for them. Spending other people's money on top quality components was Fun.
Everything is a compromise.
With such an expensive and high quality battery such as a lifeline, aiming to reasonably meet their well defined charging parameters is certainly wise.
I personally feel that meeting and exceeding their 20% rate when cycled to 50% is likely key to their longevity, and that low and slow charging via Solar will simply tickle them to death, even if the low and slow is able to replenish the Amp hours used + some % more to account for inefficiency.
It is my opinion, that returning just the AH used +~10% is not enough and that higher charging rate is quite important and much more so on AGM compared to flooded, and with higher consequences for not achieving regular higher rate recharging, especially when the battery is cycled deeper to the 50% range.
I think the 'capacity is king' mentality with too little charging source accomplishes nothing but the warm and fuzzies, temporarily, and at some point the batteries are going to need the high amp blast and perhaps significant time at voltages prescribed in lifeline's conditioning procedure in order to return anywhere near their 'new' capacity.
I feel this also applied to flooded batteries, but there is less consequence to low and slow and incomplete recharging.
But I don't have Mex's expertise and My experimenting and observations with AGMS are limited, but I do have the interest and some of the tools required to do so.
What I do know is that 100 amps from an alternator could not instantly bring a New and ~50% depleted Lifeline gpl-31XT to 14.4v instantly. After 5 minutes of 86+ amps, voltage had only risen to the 13.3v range.
That is one thirsty AGM battery!
This was well outside my expectations. I thought voltage would rise much faster and amps taper quicker. The amps did taper but only because the alternator shot upto 220F in just a few minutes and I think it has temperature protections built in.
Anyway. I am truly impressed with the lifeline GPL-31xt. I own/ rented a Northstar AGM group 27 which I am also impressed with, but I do not believe it will have anywhere near the deep cycle longevity as a Lifeline when both are recharged properly promptly and fully.
Properly promptly and fully are where the variables lay. Being able to meet the battery requirements is another huge variable, as is the requirements of different Lifelines, such as the Lifeline gpl-31t compared to the gpl-31XT compared to the 8d.
Mex once said his gpl-31t (105 AH) required 92 amps to achieve instant absorption voltage from 50% depletion, if I remember correctly. My gpl-xt (125AH) at 50% took 86+ amps for over 5 minutes and voltage never exceeded 13.4v. I expected to see numbers much closer to Mex's reported experience with his lifeline. It there that much variance between two different capacity batteries of the same physical size, or different methodology or some combination there of?
How much would a healthy Lifeline 8d require for instant absorption voltage? It is likely unachieveable by anything mounted in or on or near an RV, and three of them in parallel? Fuggetaboutit. If they are depleted to 50%, what is their true minimum initial amperage requirement? How much consequence will there be for lesser currents applied every cycle?
We have to go with lifelines 20 amps per 100Ah capacity figure. Can this be accomplished via solar only? Unlikely in the extreme. How will the lower and slower solar ramp up to max power at solar noon do for the 3 paralleled 8d Lifelines? Well JiminDenver will be our guinea pig like it or not, unless of course he gets irritated with us and stops contributing.
Then there is the variable that they are not brand spanking new 8d Lifelines either, and we are not quite sure how they were treated before JID's acquisition.
All we really know, is that more ( charging amps) is better for these high quality AGM's, and we don't truly know what qualifies as adequate. Too often we get the 'I just do this, and it works just fine!" proclamation, but all this means is it has not failed yet in such a regimen, and we also do not know the regimen as all the proclaimer has is a voltmeter and an overwhelming sense of confidence in the products which have not yet failed them.
Guesses are all we have until somebody takes the time to compile some serious data with the proper tools and inspiration to do so.
I did some minor data collecting and observations throughout the lifespan of my Screwy 31 thread, and I learned a huge amount during that process and shared what I could, and Mex's contributions to my understanding thoughout that thread were immeasurable.
The Lifeline I've gotten to play with is not mine. I was basically given an unlimited budget to build the most awesome Lead acid based 'portable' powerpack as I could. I chose A lifeline 125Ah group31, and a PD9245 plug and play charger to feed it, and a well wired alternator to quench the thing when it is away from the grid. It will eventually have solar too, but only enough to offset some usage, not enough to come anywhere close to the 20% rate lifeline dictates.
High rate recharges will be the domain of the alternator and the PD9245, and I expect, if plugged in after any serious outing, for the Lifeline to achieve 800 cycles to 50% dod. The owner has been instructed as best as possible, and does have the interest and desire in keeping this ~2000$ project as happy as possible for as long as possible, and only time will tell. He has asked the right questions and I have outfitted the powerpack with tools to measure amp hours consumed and to also measure charging current.
Frankly, I don't want to give it up to the owner. Hopefully Somebody wants me to build another one for them. Spending other people's money on top quality components was Fun.
