Forum Discussion
Dave_Pete
Sep 29, 2017Explorer II
Today: Floor Planning.
I used to kind of be a software guy, back when it was advantageous to know that stuff with work and career, or even with personal projects which are helped by knowing software.
But in more recent years, I find it awfully hard to justify learning anything new - software related - until the next time I do.
But what I learned to use many years ago, and it is still pretty fresh even today - Graph Paper! That's what I used in the late 90's to provide our vision to the contractor building our home addition. I even use it to best imagine where to place living room furniture every Christmas when we have to put up the tree, again. It's SO much easier than moving couches and stuff around several times!
Once you've chosen a scale (I prefer 1/4" graph paper squares), where like one square equals one foot, or 6 inches, or 3 inches, for example, once you have sized your project in full size to the greatest amount of real estate you can pull from an eight and a half by eleven, then you can size and cut out your objects.
Objects might be windows in a wall, couches in a living room, water jugs in a utility trailer, etc. And then you can save these little cut out sized scraps of paper in an envelope and come back another day to check/see if your NEW thoughts on the project might pan out.
I don't use it on every project! Sometimes you just have to handle the real deal, the actual objects. But for the initial vision, it helps me.
Oh I've tried graphing software, but word processors made much more sense to me. And software engineers don't speak-a-my-lanquitch either, like what the heck is a vector map?
I also used to be a Local Area Network (LAN) manager assistant in my place of employment, because I was on the payroll anyway, had a bit-o-aptitude and most importantly, a willingness to learn and assist - which is often the missing ingredient when a worker is needed to do more with less.
Techies don't think about naming office printers, they just install the drivers and let the "default" name get selected, like HP456tf or EP2500-Laser-rama-hoo-boy.
I'd always try and think like a user, because I was also one of them. So I'd rename to things like Laser-Training Dept or HP Inkjet-QA Dept, and such.
What always bothered me was whenever a techy acted like God to the user, like just because they understood something you didn't, they could treat you like you were stupid, and they were amazing, and they were doing you a favor or something, and all you could think about was how they'd get their's someday, and you might just try and pull some strings with Samantha in Human Resources and make it happen even sooner!
Seriously, that's just for humor sake, we shouldn't think that way about others. I mean everybody is hauling around one bag of baggage or another. We should be helping each other, not pointing fingers, laying blame, misdirecting attention away from our own failings.
When we get impatient with another, we shouldn't angrily speed around them. Wait until it's safe, smooth, unobtrusive. Let them go through whatever it is that's making them do whatever you don't like, but instead of giving them an angry reaction, or raising a finger, just try smiling. Not only does it calm you! It gives them a "positive" to focus on, and most of us need a positive to focus on - especially these days.
And if you ONLY have one finger, because of that shop accident, wave with your other hand - for crying out loud!
But anyway, I like graph paper.
So for this project I chose 1/4" equals 6". And every inch is then 2 foot. Easy Peasy! First I drew up a 17' long box (at the floor). Where the front room juts forward a foot at mid height, I drew that in too. I didn't draw in the additional 6" jut forward at the front roof line.
And then after closer inspection of the frame (just a little), I determined it was maybe a good idea to shorten the rear by a foot, and push the front of the house box back by a foot. Therefore, two sheets of paper here. You can see how I lined up both to the wheel wells, which are in the same vertical vector (is that what vector means?).

That's not for study, just comparison. Here's the closer view of the shortened box now.

The walls drawn on the paper are too thick, I think. Should be about 2", and the windows and doors are "shaded" in their measured spots - that's the sheet metal sizing (with existing holes and openings) which directs the necessary floor planning.
Also directing the floor planning is weight and balance. Heavier objects (water tank, appliances, etc.) are placed as close as possible to "right over the axle", or forward of the axle, and balanced between left and right sides.
Somewhere along the way, I heard from someone who indicated they knew, a home-built trailer should target loaded weight of 60% forward of the axle and 40% behind the axle. Of course that is just a rule of thumb and whether a trailer is real heavy or real light is likely to adjust that rule somewhat.
I don't know "nuthin'" about fifth wheels, but for bumper pulls, I've always heard you want a target of 10-15% overall trailer weight on your tongue. A favored world is like 12% I think, but somewhere in that range is generally safe - probably. My attorney says I have to add that word "probably" in there every so often. Or "I think" and "maybe".
(Just kidding. I don't have an attorney. I'm hanging out there just like the rest of you - maybe.)
So let's look at this again.
The original floor plan is a rear kitchen and bath. Kitchen sink and counter along the back wall, L shaped into the range (very cramped) and the back wall shared with a cramped door into the bathroom, which was originally perhaps a stool and shower at the rear, and a closet forward. Maybe. I haven't inspected all floors yet, but there's a 4" hole in the rearward spot.


We've moved that kitchen to the right side (curbside) in our plans, and put the bathroom all along the back. That shower and stool can still be moved a bit because it's paper.

That's the little forced air furnace under the bathroom basin. And the convective non-electric old-school furnace by the entry door.
And this change centers the kitchen sink on a side window, where the dinette used to live. That window is the same base height as the original rear kitchen window, which is now in the bathroom. The new kitchen window is a little higher on its top edge, giving a tall cook like DW, a greater visual, a more "campsite view" than at the rear - generally, and an easier left or right view so as to "be part of the other goings on". Kitchens in another room, or with the cook's back to you, belong in a different era, not our new century where we're providing a "breakout" for our emancipated June Cleaver!
And another thing! What many men don't get about women is that it's easy to have them be your best friend! You CAN go on vacations together. You don't have to hang with the guys and they with the girls (unless of course that's what drives you). No, you can be great partners if you have similar interests, and mutual respect. And a bathroom.
That's all it takes, respect, and a bathroom. Friends forever! Cereal!
So we haven't yet decided if we want to outfit this bathroom with a cool stool and shower - you know, of the period, because I think we can find some used stuff. Or rather, should we use that cool wet-bath stool and shower floor combo from the kid's Skamper camper that we already have, mod that bathroom up real slick-like, and just keep the period touches in the front-room and the kitchen. So there's all that still to determine, as time goes by.
But note again on the plan, all that floor space in the kitchen - you could DANCE in here, and maybe we will! Kitchen triangle: sink, stove, fridge - all over and/or near the axle.

By the way that's a pocket door between the kitchen and the bath.
And a pantry with pull out shelves into the aisle. Three rows, narrow. Maybe.
Another design element I've learned to apply (which most manufacturers don't think about, or seem to care about), is the water heater location. Keep it close to the use areas, especially the shower or bathroom basin. That's where you want hot water immediately, so you don't have to run your "limited fresh water supply" into your "limited gray water holding tank" every time you just want to splash some warm water on your face. Sheesh, it ain't rocket science.
In our poorly thought out, new(ish) Komfort TT, I open the hot faucet in the bathroom, I let it run at full and count thirteen seconds (one thousand one, one thousand two...). Then I plug the basin (cold still coming in, but then it turns warm, and then hot) and by the time I have half a gallon - or less - in the basin, which is all I need for a morning wake-up wash, I've run how much down the drain from my limited supply? Keeping the water-heater close to the use area, in effect reduces the necessary size of your grey and fresh water holding tanks! I can't help you on black water, that's a whole 'nuther thing. But a good diet helps!
Fresh water tank (cold) placement is not as critical. Other placements factors are: where are most campsite/RV park hookups located? These things should be thought about.
Or furnace vents. But sometimes you have no choice and must put a furnace vent right by the entry door, when you're trying to retain vintage character for example. Besides, "learning from burning" is not ALWAYS a bad thing! We raised two kids that way! "Now let that be a lesson to you!"
But anyway, losing the side dinette, and making the front room into a big dinette/living room/bedroom combo, really allowed for a nice sized kitchen and bathroom.
Now up front, with all the big windows (see them shaded in the walls?) there's the living area. Hang-out City.

And at night? Convert that cool dining booth into the cool huge bed!

No camper queens for us! That means a 75" long bed. WAY too short. We need the full 80" length of a standard king, queen or long-boy double. Width? Fortunately, not as big a concern for us, in fact Lil' Queeny is odd-shaped due to the bunk vee-nose; its width is queen at the wide spot and double bed width at the foot and head. I think we can do it, especially with the enfolding embrace of the night chamber itself.
But note (back here in Fairweather June) the bed pulls out to partially block the entry door. Oh well. Too bad, so sad. I think falling out of the door from bed-height during a fire escape is STILL easier on the body that is a, say.... roof escape hatch!
I also had some ideas about putting at least some grey water holding tanks ABOVE drain level by installing a 12 volt fresh-water pump to pull grey water out of a reduced size lower tank and pumping it into a higher (in the warm room) grey tank for freeze control, as we have no heated basement, but it isn't really necessary, just a thought.
If we determine flipping axles isn't a "handling" concern, and doing that CAN be, then we'd have better clearance, as well as a place to put gray and black holding tanks under the floor, close to or above the axle axis, and perhaps even insulating them in a way that is easy for maintenance as well as anti-freezing.
So, I guess that's the plan.
I used to kind of be a software guy, back when it was advantageous to know that stuff with work and career, or even with personal projects which are helped by knowing software.
But in more recent years, I find it awfully hard to justify learning anything new - software related - until the next time I do.
But what I learned to use many years ago, and it is still pretty fresh even today - Graph Paper! That's what I used in the late 90's to provide our vision to the contractor building our home addition. I even use it to best imagine where to place living room furniture every Christmas when we have to put up the tree, again. It's SO much easier than moving couches and stuff around several times!
Once you've chosen a scale (I prefer 1/4" graph paper squares), where like one square equals one foot, or 6 inches, or 3 inches, for example, once you have sized your project in full size to the greatest amount of real estate you can pull from an eight and a half by eleven, then you can size and cut out your objects.
Objects might be windows in a wall, couches in a living room, water jugs in a utility trailer, etc. And then you can save these little cut out sized scraps of paper in an envelope and come back another day to check/see if your NEW thoughts on the project might pan out.
I don't use it on every project! Sometimes you just have to handle the real deal, the actual objects. But for the initial vision, it helps me.
Oh I've tried graphing software, but word processors made much more sense to me. And software engineers don't speak-a-my-lanquitch either, like what the heck is a vector map?
I also used to be a Local Area Network (LAN) manager assistant in my place of employment, because I was on the payroll anyway, had a bit-o-aptitude and most importantly, a willingness to learn and assist - which is often the missing ingredient when a worker is needed to do more with less.
Techies don't think about naming office printers, they just install the drivers and let the "default" name get selected, like HP456tf or EP2500-Laser-rama-hoo-boy.
I'd always try and think like a user, because I was also one of them. So I'd rename to things like Laser-Training Dept or HP Inkjet-QA Dept, and such.
What always bothered me was whenever a techy acted like God to the user, like just because they understood something you didn't, they could treat you like you were stupid, and they were amazing, and they were doing you a favor or something, and all you could think about was how they'd get their's someday, and you might just try and pull some strings with Samantha in Human Resources and make it happen even sooner!
Seriously, that's just for humor sake, we shouldn't think that way about others. I mean everybody is hauling around one bag of baggage or another. We should be helping each other, not pointing fingers, laying blame, misdirecting attention away from our own failings.
When we get impatient with another, we shouldn't angrily speed around them. Wait until it's safe, smooth, unobtrusive. Let them go through whatever it is that's making them do whatever you don't like, but instead of giving them an angry reaction, or raising a finger, just try smiling. Not only does it calm you! It gives them a "positive" to focus on, and most of us need a positive to focus on - especially these days.
And if you ONLY have one finger, because of that shop accident, wave with your other hand - for crying out loud!
But anyway, I like graph paper.
So for this project I chose 1/4" equals 6". And every inch is then 2 foot. Easy Peasy! First I drew up a 17' long box (at the floor). Where the front room juts forward a foot at mid height, I drew that in too. I didn't draw in the additional 6" jut forward at the front roof line.
And then after closer inspection of the frame (just a little), I determined it was maybe a good idea to shorten the rear by a foot, and push the front of the house box back by a foot. Therefore, two sheets of paper here. You can see how I lined up both to the wheel wells, which are in the same vertical vector (is that what vector means?).

That's not for study, just comparison. Here's the closer view of the shortened box now.

The walls drawn on the paper are too thick, I think. Should be about 2", and the windows and doors are "shaded" in their measured spots - that's the sheet metal sizing (with existing holes and openings) which directs the necessary floor planning.
Also directing the floor planning is weight and balance. Heavier objects (water tank, appliances, etc.) are placed as close as possible to "right over the axle", or forward of the axle, and balanced between left and right sides.
Somewhere along the way, I heard from someone who indicated they knew, a home-built trailer should target loaded weight of 60% forward of the axle and 40% behind the axle. Of course that is just a rule of thumb and whether a trailer is real heavy or real light is likely to adjust that rule somewhat.
I don't know "nuthin'" about fifth wheels, but for bumper pulls, I've always heard you want a target of 10-15% overall trailer weight on your tongue. A favored world is like 12% I think, but somewhere in that range is generally safe - probably. My attorney says I have to add that word "probably" in there every so often. Or "I think" and "maybe".
(Just kidding. I don't have an attorney. I'm hanging out there just like the rest of you - maybe.)
So let's look at this again.
The original floor plan is a rear kitchen and bath. Kitchen sink and counter along the back wall, L shaped into the range (very cramped) and the back wall shared with a cramped door into the bathroom, which was originally perhaps a stool and shower at the rear, and a closet forward. Maybe. I haven't inspected all floors yet, but there's a 4" hole in the rearward spot.


We've moved that kitchen to the right side (curbside) in our plans, and put the bathroom all along the back. That shower and stool can still be moved a bit because it's paper.

That's the little forced air furnace under the bathroom basin. And the convective non-electric old-school furnace by the entry door.
And this change centers the kitchen sink on a side window, where the dinette used to live. That window is the same base height as the original rear kitchen window, which is now in the bathroom. The new kitchen window is a little higher on its top edge, giving a tall cook like DW, a greater visual, a more "campsite view" than at the rear - generally, and an easier left or right view so as to "be part of the other goings on". Kitchens in another room, or with the cook's back to you, belong in a different era, not our new century where we're providing a "breakout" for our emancipated June Cleaver!
And another thing! What many men don't get about women is that it's easy to have them be your best friend! You CAN go on vacations together. You don't have to hang with the guys and they with the girls (unless of course that's what drives you). No, you can be great partners if you have similar interests, and mutual respect. And a bathroom.
That's all it takes, respect, and a bathroom. Friends forever! Cereal!
So we haven't yet decided if we want to outfit this bathroom with a cool stool and shower - you know, of the period, because I think we can find some used stuff. Or rather, should we use that cool wet-bath stool and shower floor combo from the kid's Skamper camper that we already have, mod that bathroom up real slick-like, and just keep the period touches in the front-room and the kitchen. So there's all that still to determine, as time goes by.
But note again on the plan, all that floor space in the kitchen - you could DANCE in here, and maybe we will! Kitchen triangle: sink, stove, fridge - all over and/or near the axle.

By the way that's a pocket door between the kitchen and the bath.
And a pantry with pull out shelves into the aisle. Three rows, narrow. Maybe.
Another design element I've learned to apply (which most manufacturers don't think about, or seem to care about), is the water heater location. Keep it close to the use areas, especially the shower or bathroom basin. That's where you want hot water immediately, so you don't have to run your "limited fresh water supply" into your "limited gray water holding tank" every time you just want to splash some warm water on your face. Sheesh, it ain't rocket science.
In our poorly thought out, new(ish) Komfort TT, I open the hot faucet in the bathroom, I let it run at full and count thirteen seconds (one thousand one, one thousand two...). Then I plug the basin (cold still coming in, but then it turns warm, and then hot) and by the time I have half a gallon - or less - in the basin, which is all I need for a morning wake-up wash, I've run how much down the drain from my limited supply? Keeping the water-heater close to the use area, in effect reduces the necessary size of your grey and fresh water holding tanks! I can't help you on black water, that's a whole 'nuther thing. But a good diet helps!
Fresh water tank (cold) placement is not as critical. Other placements factors are: where are most campsite/RV park hookups located? These things should be thought about.
Or furnace vents. But sometimes you have no choice and must put a furnace vent right by the entry door, when you're trying to retain vintage character for example. Besides, "learning from burning" is not ALWAYS a bad thing! We raised two kids that way! "Now let that be a lesson to you!"
But anyway, losing the side dinette, and making the front room into a big dinette/living room/bedroom combo, really allowed for a nice sized kitchen and bathroom.
Now up front, with all the big windows (see them shaded in the walls?) there's the living area. Hang-out City.

And at night? Convert that cool dining booth into the cool huge bed!

No camper queens for us! That means a 75" long bed. WAY too short. We need the full 80" length of a standard king, queen or long-boy double. Width? Fortunately, not as big a concern for us, in fact Lil' Queeny is odd-shaped due to the bunk vee-nose; its width is queen at the wide spot and double bed width at the foot and head. I think we can do it, especially with the enfolding embrace of the night chamber itself.
But note (back here in Fairweather June) the bed pulls out to partially block the entry door. Oh well. Too bad, so sad. I think falling out of the door from bed-height during a fire escape is STILL easier on the body that is a, say.... roof escape hatch!
I also had some ideas about putting at least some grey water holding tanks ABOVE drain level by installing a 12 volt fresh-water pump to pull grey water out of a reduced size lower tank and pumping it into a higher (in the warm room) grey tank for freeze control, as we have no heated basement, but it isn't really necessary, just a thought.
If we determine flipping axles isn't a "handling" concern, and doing that CAN be, then we'd have better clearance, as well as a place to put gray and black holding tanks under the floor, close to or above the axle axis, and perhaps even insulating them in a way that is easy for maintenance as well as anti-freezing.
So, I guess that's the plan.
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