1968 Travel Queen Resto Mod - 1. Acquisition & Evaluation

This morning's post steps back into an earlier part, the evaluation portion of "Acquisition and Evaluation". Kind of weird perhaps, but these next pictures aren't about any system in particular. Rather we have reached a stage in the build where it was beneficial to set in place all the little interior parts for a new evaluation as I get ready to more fully plan systems, routings and storage.

Some of these cabinet frames have had a little work done last summer, and now need a bit more effort as my overall rebuild level and intentions have deepened from my original thoughts.

Here's the ten cent tour...

The new galley (left) side wing assembly with and without the galley cabinet face. Lots of rebuild to do in this cabinet.





Here you see the left side of the galley.

The two larger drawers on the left side will become access doors to the plumbing side of the water heater. The original camper didn't have hot water. Some may lament the loss of kitchen storage, but we don't intend to have a kitchen. Kitchens are for houses. We need a place to prepare food, but no more, and that's called a galley.

But there are aspects of a kitchen we want in our galley. And to our minds, hot water is more important than more drawer space. The two small drawers on the right then become both "enough space" and "all important". Can't encroach on them, they are a "must keep".



Still referring to the above photo, the opening between the left and right drawers is the under sink. The double stainless steel sink basin curves up a little into the space of the top right drawer, and over toward the left side drawers. With the hot water heater under the left side drawers, all the space under the sink remains available, but that area will include some plumbing lines, and both the water fill station and exterior spray port station at the bottom rear. The extra under cabinet space to the left of the water heater then becomes inaccessible (as it was originally due to drawers being in the way). We can't afford to lose that space so I'll be adding an access door to the cabinet face for it.

The area to the right is of course for the range, not just a stove top. Our style of food preparation requires a gas oven well before it does an electric microwave oven.

Under the water heater is another recess. That may become a swing out kitchen garbage location. There is no place available for a vented furnace, and we prefer the quieter and non-power hungry aspects of the catalytic type heaters in this particular camper application, so we'll place one of those below the range.

Many of our systems will be manual and will require a little more brain engagement than do the automatics. The back door has a vented window as does the roof (two vents) and we'll be installing and maintaining carbon dioxide and oxygen depletion alarms along with our propane and smoke detectors.

Still on the galley side and now up front is the refrigerator cabinet (next photo). The cabinet has a built in storage space at the top in front of the curved roof area, allowing enough space behind it for a fridge vent. The cabinet depth is 24" just like required for fridges in our cubic foot range. But, the rounded roof begins to curve at a height where detailed measuring becomes necessary for installed height of the fridge shelf. In our case I want to install the roughly 4 cubic foot Hadco 410 fridge from out donor camper, a gas/110V electric unit. But I want to plan and build the cabinet to accept a new Norcold 410 for when and if we need to upgrade the old unit. Doing so will require placing the fridge shelf level with the current bottom opening in the cabinet face and building a 3-4" high opening at the top below the storage cabinet. That 3-4" opening (above the fridge) will become more storage. Below the fridge will be a small 2-4" high space for utility lines that don't matter if they freeze. Fresh water lines (under pressure) will all be run on the inside of the camper's living space, except where they have to run for "behind the scenes" connections. In those areas I'll make certain heat can be brought to them.



Under the cab-over access step is a major player. Here you see the 40 gallon fresh water tank. The original was 30 gallons. I altered the cabinet face to provide a location for two waste receptacle containers. These may be for dirty laundry, accessed by a small lift up hinged panel. There's also space between the water tank and the dinette floor for a fresh water fill hose (but mainly for the galley grey water drain plumbing). To the left are two anti-freeze jugs. This area may work for a quick winterization involving simply throwing a valve or two. On the left wing assembly wall near the jugs is where the water pump will mount, keeping water line runs as short as possible. In front of the waste can receptacles is an original door access that can be used for getting warm air under the step in one way or another.



The u-shape dinette area will double as a second bed (twin size), and a lounge area. With the table up or down there will be a lounge facing to the rear, or to the front, or while sitting in the front - facing to the left. The space under the dinette floor is shared with the grey water tank to the rear, the pedestal table mount in the middle and a storage space in the front. The storage space will be accessed with a narrower drawer front access door from the donor camper, while the rearward drawer will also become an access door. Under the rear u-shape seat is the electrical cabinet. There is space here for two large group size batteries, a power center (charger, converter, fuse/circuit breaker panel) in addition to the bathroom sink drain and trap plumbing.







And finally - here - high on the wall is space for a 24" low power draw smart TV. It will be hung on the wall near the cabinet for permanent wiring runs through the ceiling archway channel and via a quick disconnect wall mount. That way we can snap on the TV stand and take it outside to the patio area for outside viewing. Of course I'll have to run exterior connections too. For normal interior viewing the lounge will give us an appropriate distance for an enjoyable experience even with a small screen. The "smart" part of the TV means that it contains the components and software necessary to connect via wireless Internet signal to such streaming video sources as Netflix.

Being a small screen, we'll be able to even run the TV for a few hours on 12V batteries via a small size power inverter. Along with our OTHER very low power consumption amenities we should be able to pull in to a spot for the night, watch a couple hours of TV, use normal lights, etc. during the evening and over night, again in the morning, and be on our way allowing the truck to charge again while we drive - oh and then there's the solar panel plan too.



So there's the systems and layout in general. I'll probably keep these furnishings in place as I start planning the connection runs and building the left utility side of the camper.

EDIT 8/8/15. This thread "Acquisition & Evaluation" is in essence done. I'm currently at a "break" stage of work on Lil' Queeny and will get back to it sometime this winter.

In my case the side windows have operating sashes, but the front facing windows are fixed. That's good in that we like to have a little ventilation up there besides just the roof vent. Even so, the mattress and bedding do block the low side windows. Or your arm or hair/head is up against it. I'm considering some sort of partition that keeps cold night time drafts off your head or arms and your hands and hair out of the screen, but that still allows airflow. I've got about five extra inches of bed length to work with over what a long-boy double bed would require.

And yeah, I kind of like the original styling.

The front windows get called into question on most rebuilds/repairs . From the accounts that I've read the windows were not the only cause of front water damage . You don't show a close up of your front window opening but from other pictures it doesn't look like there was water damage from the front windows . Personally I like to be able to look out of the camper in all four directions and to peek out the front window in the morning . If anything the side windows in the bunk are rather useless . By the time you put a mattress , pillows and blankets in it they will almost be covered . Another reason to keep all the windows is the aluminum siding is already cut out for them and to close them off would mean a patch which would take away from the originality . There is no reason that the window frames cannot be made water proof if properly installed . The operating sash is another matter and needs a careful inspection and probably fresh seals . Another option would be to make fixed sash windows for the front . Always interesting :)

I didn't get enough done in the garage yesterday to warrant pictures, let alone a description! So I didn't have a post for this morning. Then I was answering email and a friend sent a suggestion and I replied. I thought, "hey - that could go in Part 1. Aquistion & Evaluation" :)

He said...

Dave. Just as a side note for you. I spent the last twelve working years as an RV tech.. We repaired many camper front's due to leaking front windows! Maybe rebuilt is a better term! I would say, that about half of the customers agreed with us to omit the front window on the rebuild. You very seldom have the curtain open anyway, and there is supposed to be a vent-escape hatch on the roof to look at the stars or escape in case of emergency!! Just a suggestion.

To which I replied...

Yeah (insert buddy's name here), the front camper windows are a dilemma indeed. Of course I’m the type that leans more toward keeping the original charm/style. And nobody can argue removing the front windows on a Travel Queen adversely affects its front aesthetics, compare those two photos in the “Acquisition” part. That donor camper was kind of ugly from that direction!

Anyway, I have siding holes to consider and we do like looking out that way at times. Guess I’ll just have to pay close attention to correctly maintaining and replacing the window seals.

There was also quite a different feel to the campers when we were originally standing in them. Lil’ Queeny (with the windows) felt more inviting. This is such a small space it takes great thought and consideration when you have a determination to make sure there are two or more purposes for everything in the camper.

I'd like to thank my friend for his input and I guess I'll do some thinking on just what are the purposes of the front windows in our camper. We'll probably return to this subject. :)

One of the reasons I started this Part 1 Acquisition and Evaluation at this time, and included the term "Evaluation", is because in recent days I have been able to remove or peel back enough of the metal skin to see and understand the build style of the framing in particular, or the camper in general. It is hard to say at this point whether or not I will complete this resto-mod, but it is safe to say today that it IS DOABLE.

I tend to get into such rebuilding a bit deeper initially than maybe an average Joe. I am sure I could have made some fixes and upgrades to the camper as it was, without tearing into it, but I would know it was lacking. The mystery of "what's going to go wrong next" isn't something I like when deciding to keep or fix something. So there I am.

Recent days have revealed enough to at least say with confidence, keep your hands and feet inside the ride at all times, hold on tight, and have fun!

After removing non-Travel Queen accessories in the camper: plastic mirror, paper-towel holder, etc. I ran the truck and camper over to the local truck stop and got a weigh.

My diesel pickup is heavy enough for off-roading and I don't want to add a lot of weight in the form of a camper. And granted, my truck and camper off-roading isn't like what we use Lil' Willy for (our Willys Jeep), but light-weight is better for us. Except that we are spoiled and don't like discomfort. No tents, no outhouses (for every visit I mean), no this, no that. You know? And actually, we are not really spoiled, just experienced. :)

So after the math, the camper (without corner jacks and basically as delivered from the manufacturer) came in at just over 1500 lbs. That is a good starting weight in my mind. I expect with the addition of a fridge, water heater, other amenities that we're adding we might be near 2000 max dry weight. If I keep this tight little package below 2400-2500 lbs wet I'll be very pleased.

My measurements come up with: exterior height 6'8", interior height 6'3.5" (I'm 6'4"), exterior width 7'6", interior width 7'3.5" (room for that 80" bed length we require), cab over stays behind front windshield and provides a bed width of 52" at the ends and 60" in the middle (where the camper v-nose juts forward).

I think a small microwave oven would sit on a swing out shelf and arm (like a TV wall mount) in the cab-over starboard side by, and above, your feet. In use, it would swing out to the cab over bed entry and be easily accessed from the kitchen. A small TV would mount well on the dinette back wall, while the dinette conversion to lounge design would place the lounge back against the camper front wall.

The raised floor of the toilet closet (to become the wet bath/toilet closet) is tight, yes, but believe me when I say, I have tested the space several times (simulation that is) and that is why we had to buy the porti-potti already, for sizing purposes. I can say this - it's probably good that my shoe size is 12 and not 13. 'Nuff said.

I think it might be safe for me to state, "a camper's corners, and the ends of the wings, may well suffer more abuse than anywhere else on a camper."

The corners are where the jacks mount and the jacks have likely been levered back and forth and sideways many multiple times over the camper's life for several reasons, but perhaps mostly from loading and unloading as the truck isn't exactly straight to the camper and an owner uses muscle to push the camper one way or another. Or the camper isn't high enough and scrapes a little on the bed of the truck. Or maybe a jack end took a hit on a boulder or dragged a bush once.

The wing ends are normally where the tie-downs are located. No owner wants to lose their camper so they make sure it's tight, right? Sometimes too tight. Maybe before they pull out of the driveway they've already started to pull some of the wing fasteners out of the rest of the structure! Then the bed flexes over uneven terrain and the flex forces more destruction.

These places are typically quite tender, and more often than not manufacturers haven't designed them well enough to withstand normal use, let alone abuse.

For an old stick frame camper, water can easily get into these corner areas from jack bracket installations that either weren't designed well or were aftermarket slop-ons by a well-meaning home owner or a novice RV service tech who is thinking more about his high-school girlfriend at the moment when he starts screwing lag bolts into your several thousand dollar investment.

I mentioned early, "Don't put corner jacks on a travel queen". Here's why. While the front and back walls are 5/8" plywood, the side wall framing in the corner are pieces of 1x2. Vertical pieces differing in length by the interruption of horizontal 1 bys. When you screw lag bolts into the camper sidewall, your first surface is metal skin, then 1/4" fiberglass batt, then pieces of 1x2, and finally 1/8" birch paneling (the interior wall surface). Yeah I know, the brackets are designed to put the lags into the plywood ends, etc. I still say it's just a way to begin wood breakdown.

Someone bypassed Lil' Queeny's manufacturer designed Saf-T-Jack mount system (an under-wing metal grid fastened to both the front and back walls and the wing) and installed standard hydraulic corner jacks. Lil' Queeny's wood under the metal and fiberglass is looking really good over-all (from what I can see so far) but the corners are destroyed, both by the jack bracket lag bolts, and the resulting water damage from opening the corners up to water intrusion. Doesn't matter how much silicon you slop on stuff, if your fastener doesn't gain purchase, the joint will leak and the water will get in. Or if you bang the jack, it will weaken the fastener's grip (lag bolt into plywood edge?) and moisture will get in.

We'll get more detailed as the project goes on but for now, here are some pictures of parts of the under-wing grid, along with - in two photos (from the larger donor camper) - the horizontal tubes of the jacks extending into the grid frame, and in the other photos (Lil' Queeny) - previous owner designed tie-down eye bolts in pipe pieces.











This owner designed tie down is probably not the best design either. For one thing, the rear tie downs are much too far forward (the pipe holes are positioned based on each camper's center of gravity). Secondly they are all too far inboard. Even if you got longer pipes and put the eye-bolt far enough outboard for properly locating the tie-down mount, you are extending leverage onto the metal grid, setting yourself up for wing structural failure.

I am not an engineer; nor am I a camper designer and I haven't even played one of those on TV, and I don't really much stay at Holiday Inn Expresses, but I firmly believe this....

A camper corner structure (front/back wall, side wall, and under-wing surface), must be tied together well or there will be problems. If the camper is large and heavy enough, it may well be the manufacturer has tied these together well (or not). If the camper is light-weight, or thin-walled, I wouldn't trust them (the corner or the manufacturer). Lags will loosen; use bolts and nuts. Use some sort of metal gussets inside and out. Sandwich the camper between them. That's why interior access is a must. For me.

I have to replace the wood of the: wings, at least the back wall, perhaps the front wall (inside the bed), and the lower side walls. I will fabricate such metal gussets when I assemble. These gussets will incorporate properly positioned tie-down locations and provide a proper mounting for a future corner jack should I (or a subsequent owner) decide to install corner jacks.

My plan is to use the donor camper's Saf-T-Jack system, cut to proper size and rebuilt as needed to use on Lil' Queeny. Alternatively I have two portable side jacks that work very effectively for loading and unloading, which I will use in conjunction with the metal grid and a slight modification. I like the idea of leaving the rock grabbing and extra weight of camper jacks home when I get on the road.

Ahh, the enthusiasm and flexibility of youth. Or is it that you're my age and just have less need for body work?

My goodness! We have a nice travel trailer, granted, even though new it has significant quality of materials or build issues. And we can't tow the new boat anywhere for overnight. Or the old Willys Jeep. Hmmmmm.

You want to take that little road right there? Where does it go? I don't know. Well - we'd have to unhitch - You want to? Naw. Oh well. Probably doesn't go anywhere anyway.

We had pop-up campered for the previous 10 years and loved it. Now retired we thought, 'lets get a nicer, bigger unit and see the country!' It wasn't all it was cracked up to be. At least not for us. Too big to really enjoy.

But I don't want a pop-up again. Need a little better bathroom than a toilet in the main aisle and a shower outside. Want to have more than just fabric on the walls. But that small size was really nice for travel.

We found Class B and C were pretty skimpy on features for smaller units, not to mention tank sizes. And have you seen those new camper prices? OMGoodness! And then you make a choice anyway and one of your two choices falls out of another guys truck because the tie-down mount is fastened to a slice of white bread on the camper wing. With twist ties.

Lil' Queeny sure has class huh? Look at that birch paneling! Look at the scroll work. Oh yeah! That's what I'm talking about baby!

I had originally planned to pull all the windows and re-install with new putty. Probably the door too. Oh and of course the propane door. And the vent over the stove. Oh my! There's a lot of stuff stuck on the outside of the camper skin! Don't want to get too deep into it though without being able to button it up at night. Pull all the aftermarket jacks and brackets. (By the way, don't put corner jacks on a Travel Queen - the framing can't handle it as originally designed). Use metal duct tape to seal the exterior where things are removed (jack mounts, top of that one leaking window). Okay - looking good. So busy with other things this summer! Home, yard, outside projects, parties, family needs. Okay just look at that camper with all the stuff removed and covered with duct tape! Just look at it day after day after day. The camper is going to be great!