2016 Coachmen Apex 23LE - First Trailer

I guess my gripe is the incessant insistence that every TT need the perfect TV match or it cannot be safely towed.

There certainly are TT/TV combinations that are questionable, but I would rather see an underpowered, loaded, short wheelbase combination driven at a modest pace, than a perfectly matched set up screaming past me are 80 mph.

How you drive the combo you have is what is important.

rbpru wrote:
While it is true that bigger is better when it comes to TVs, not everybody is willing to invest in a diesel behemoth for a few weeks of travel.

Oh boy, here we go :S ... no one has suggested the OP needs "a diesel behemoth" to tow this trailer he's intending to buy, only that he's really going to be up against the limits of his V6 equipped Durango gasser, in lack of power under some circumstances, potentially lack of control at times due to it's short wheelbase, and certainly in terms of payload capacity considering there's also the weight of a family in that vehicle, not just one or two adults. No need to exaggerate when all anyone responding to the OP is trying to offer is some insight on the reality of his situation, based on their own experiences in towing. I've seen this deterioration in discussions about towing countless times before and with that said I've offered the best I can so I'm done. To the OP - good luck with it. :)

While it is true that bigger is better when it comes to TVs, not everybody is willing to invest in a diesel behemoth for a few weeks of travel.

Like most people you will start with what you have and adjust accordingly. Five years ago when we decided to try a TT, we rented a 5k lb. 25 ft. unit to pull with our F-150. A seemingly good match, but the TV only had a 200 hp V6.

In a 10 day trip to the Ozarks we learned that we needed a lot more horse power. Annoying, yes. A ruined trip, no. You simply adapt to the situation at hand.

The old TV has been replaced with a 356 hp E-Boost and we tow a 25 ft Dutchman.

Use what you have and adjust a time and finances allow.

bulldogvols wrote:
To support the TT purchase we added in a w/d hitch with 4-point sway control and will have electric brakes on the trailer. With the w/d hitch in place, how best should I go about calculating the tongue weight and its placement? Does it go into the payload for the Durango or spread out in equal parts to the TV and TT?

No disrespect intended but it sounds to me like you're doing everything you can to convince yourselves that this will be an acceptable combination when many who have been doing this for quite awhile are saying "not so much". :E

First, you need to know how much your particular TV weighs, full tank of gas, hitch equipment mounted, no one in the vehicle but yourself. Take it to a weigh station, get the number, subtract your weight from the scale reading and you'll then know ... subtract that number from the vehicle's GVWR and you'll then have it's real world payload capacity that you'll use to accommodate the weight of everyone and everything added as cargo PLUS trailer tongue weight that is transferred to the TV from the trailer when hitched up.

The purpose of using weight distribution isn't to "support the TT purchase" but rather to transfer weight back to the TV's steer axle with the trailer hitched to the TV ... without it that steer axle will unload and steering will become problematic, especially as weather conditions deteriorate. Conventional wisdom says you want 10% to 15% of the trailer's GVW - i.e. how much it weighs loaded and ready to camp - represented as gross tongue weight, but based on my experience you really want it up in the 13% to 14% range. With a factory listed UVW of ~ 4300 lbs and considering this is a family (with all their attendant "junk") my bet is you'll easily see this trailer's GVW weigh in somewhere around 5500 lbs loaded and ready to camp. 13.5% of that is ~ 740 lbs which must be accommodated within your TV's real world payload capacity, with the remainder used to account for everything else. Keep in mind also that kids have this nasty habit of constantly getting bigger and heavier (hey, even we adults tend to as well!) so you'll also want some buffer for that as well. Got a dog? ... he/she counts too, as do bikes and anything else you may want to drag along with you.

Gross trailer weight, loaded and ready to camp, can only be verified once you've got the trailer and can take it to a weigh scale. I use a purpose designed Sherline Tongue Weight Scale to periodically check gross tongue weight but you can easily do it with a bathroom scale and tongue weight beam. In the meantime though, because you don't yet have this trailer in hand, you can use those trailer GVW and gross tongue weight numbers I offered as a reasonable estimate to compare against your Durango's numbers. Regardless, your Durango has a rather short wheelbase for a trailer of this length and although it may have a narrow ratio 6-speed transmission more suited to towing than the older 4-speed I have in my Avalanche the fact is that V6 can only do so much in hauling what is effectively a barn door down the road at highway speeds. Again JMO, but based on the various trailers I've towed, one of which was almost identical in size and weight to this Apex, I wouldn't for a moment consider towing it with anything less than a V8, other than an F150 Eco V6. Remember too that this isn't just about pulling the trailer forward against all the forces fighting to slow it down (i.e. wind resistance) but also being able to safely stop the trailer, especially in the case of emergency ... and asking a vehicle of this size to quickly stop nearly 3 tons of trailer, even considering the trailer does have it's own braking system, is a mighty task in itself. :E

Thanks to everyone for their responses thus far I really value your contributions, my families safety is not something we would ever take lightly. Truth be told - matching the towing vehicle to the travel trailer has been an exercise in patience, learning and frustration. We've never taken the word of RV salesmen (several of whom have tried their hardest to sell us TT's well in excess of 5k lbs, in such cases we immediately ask to speak with another rep) and ultimately dropped to the Apex in large part to its light weight and reputation for quality. Originally we'd wanted to purchase the Bullett 243BHS but the weight was simply too much of a concern. The 2015 Durango's (with tow package) are geared differently, have heavy duty cooling systems built in and heavy duty rear ends with built in sway control. To support the TT purchase we added in a w/d hitch with 4-point sway control and will have electric brakes on the trailer. With the w/d hitch in place, how best should I go about calculating the tongue weight and its placement? Does it go into the payload for the Durango or spread out in equal parts to the TV and TT? The wife and I will be picking it up this weekend and immmediately heading over to a certified scale for exact measurements. Thanks to all for their input.

Congrats on your new Coachman Apex! You and your family will be making some good memories with a TT. I'd suggest to have a weight distributing hitch and take those first trips slow and short. You're going to be right up against the Durango's ratings for weight so don't be in a hurry to get somewhere.

One of your first trips might be to a scale with all the camping gear inside to see exactly how much you'll be pulling. That takes a lot of guess-work out of the equations. Cat scales are located in most regional areas.

While I have no experience with the Apex line I do have a Coachmen and have been pleased with it.

bulldogvols wrote:
We happened to stumble across the Apex 23LE and its dry weight of 4300lbs.

The current Coachmen Apex 23LE has a listed UVW of 4270 lbs and a GVWR of 6500 lbs ... in reality the actual stickered dry weight of the particular trailer you buy will be higher because of any options / accessories added to your particular unit. Add to that the weight of any accessories your dealer may add such as propane in the tanks and battery plus the weight of any water you yourself may normally carry and that trailer before you add any personal cargo of your own will weigh even more. :E Loaded and ready to camp this trailer is way too much for a V6 gas aspired engine, even a newer rendition such as you have, and especially when it's also carrying the weight of a family, not just one or two adults.

I currently tow a Coachmen Freedom Express 192RBS that typically weighs ~ 4500 lbs loaded and ready to camp with a 5.3L V8 Avalanche, a friend owns a similar Starcraft Launch that he tows with a late model GM Acadia 3.6L V6 equipped with a factory tow package and although he does manage (with just he and his wife in the vehicle) to get where he's going it does struggle when the terrain is anything but flat and he's already (after just one season) planning to replace the vehicle with a 1/2 ton truck. I'd also be concerned about the Durango's wheelbase of ~ 120" which is awfully short for towing a trailer measuring nearly 27' coupler to bumper. :E JMO, but you either want less trailer or more tow vehicle.

Without researching all the specs and numbers, I would hazard a guess that you are going to be pushing the limits with a tt that size.

The dry weights are meaningless as no one tows an empty trailer with no options. Most dry weights are usually several hundred pounds heavier once delivered and options, batteries, propane etc are added. Once loaded with stuff for a family (assumed by the bunks) you're going to be real close, if not over, that tow rating.

Keep in mind that the tow ratings decrease pound for pound with stuff and passenger weights added to the vehicle. Another figure you need to be concerned with is the Durangos payload and hitch ratings. These will usually be exceeded well before reaching the tow ratings. The maximum payload is around 1300lbs, less with loaded up models. (check your drivers door panel for actual payload number) All passengers, stuff, and tongue weight count towards this. That tt will have a tongue weight that will eat up at least 650lbs of that. Does that leave you enough for your family?

You'll also likely find a V6 to be very anemic for towing a 5K+ trailer. Get some actual scaled weights and do your homework before falling into the trap that many of us on here have.

Congrats on your new camper! The Apex is well-regarded, and I hope you enjoy it! I'm not familiar with this model. Hopefully, someone else who has one will weigh in.

How do you like your Durango? I test drove one and liked it, except for the lag when accelerating.