Forum Discussion
ShinerBock wrote:
4x4ord wrote:
It really isn’t about favourite brand truck for me. I realize that had Ram not stuck the 5.9 Cummins under its hood back in 89 we might not have seen the Duramax. Had we not seen the Duramax or the Cummins in Ram and Chevy who knows what Ford would be trying to pass off as a diesel in their pickup. So I really appreciate what competition amongst the three has done. I am not impressed with Cummins in the big truck arena where the newer Cummins engines are referred to as boat anchors.... that might prevent me from placing the 6.7 Cummins on a pedestal like many Ram guys do. I am kind of placing the Powerstroke on a pedestal, not because it’s Ford, but because I believe the 6.7 Powerstroke has almost done for the pickups what the 5.9 Cummins did in the 90s and the Duramax did in the 2000s. It was first to introduce the compacted iron block, Ford was bold enough to incorporate reverse flow heads, they are first to have steel pistons. I believe the Powerstroke has raised the bar as far as cooling is concerned. Until I looked into it in the last few days I didn’t realize how large the radiator and charge air radiator were on the Ford. There is a huge difference in the physical size of cooling system components between the Ram and Ford. (Unless Ram has very recently upgraded?). The heat soaking is not going to be an issue when the intercooler has its own radiator.... and the secondary radiator is significantly larger than the air to air on the Ram. The Ford primary radiator has double the surface area as the Ram rad. With steel pistons Ford might even be allowing hotter egts than they did in the past. The 2020 Ford might not defuel as much as you think on a hot day,
In the big truck arena, Cummins actually sales a lot more and has a lot larger market share than the others by far. Especially for our customers looking for high horsepower for their application. These are not based on my beliefs or opinions either. They are based on sales data provided by HDAA along with sales data from our 130+ medium and heavy duty dealerships. So don't confuse your bias opinions as facts. I will also say that the 6.7L Cummins has been the highest selling engine in medium duty truck and buses since it has been out. Mainly because it makes more sustained and rated power than the other engines, like the 6.7L Powerstroke, in these applications.
You still have a lot to learn about engines. For one, it is not just how big their cooling system is, but also how cool the incoming air is, how quickly it can move that air through the system, and how much of that heat is retained. That is different between each engine along with intake and emissions system design. One design may get hot enough to need things like steel pistons while another may not. One design may have a more restrictive turbine housing on their turbo for quicker spool causing higher EGT's while another may not. It is not as simple as you think it is and one system can be effected by multiple systems.
Also, heat soaking is an issue on all water cooled intercoolers under sustained loads regardless of whether or not they have their own cooling system. The benefits of a water cooled system is better short burst power like in drag racing/tractor pulls or posting high power numbers on the dyno.
It could be that Cummins sells lots of engines but I know that in days past (prior to emissions) the Cat was considered a far more reliable engine than the Cummins and in more recent years the Detroit is considered much more reliable than the Cummins. The 6.7 seems to be a good engine but I'm not aware of anything special about it.
Shiner I'm not suggesting there is not more to it than size of cooling system components but when the engine that is proving to be more efficient (ie the Ike run demonstrated that the Ford used less fuel to climb the hill than the Ram) also has a greater capacity for cooling you've got to recognize there is a good chance that the Ford can sustain significantly more power than the Ram can on a hot day.4x4ord wrote:
It really isn’t about favourite brand truck for me. I realize that had Ram not stuck the 5.9 Cummins under its hood back in 89 we might not have seen the Duramax. Had we not seen the Duramax or the Cummins in Ram and Chevy who knows what Ford would be trying to pass off as a diesel in their pickup. So I really appreciate what competition amongst the three has done. I am not impressed with Cummins in the big truck arena where the newer Cummins engines are referred to as boat anchors.... that might prevent me from placing the 6.7 Cummins on a pedestal like many Ram guys do. I am kind of placing the Powerstroke on a pedestal, not because it’s Ford, but because I believe the 6.7 Powerstroke has almost done for the pickups what the 5.9 Cummins did in the 90s and the Duramax did in the 2000s. It was first to introduce the compacted iron block, Ford was bold enough to incorporate reverse flow heads, they are first to have steel pistons. I believe the Powerstroke has raised the bar as far as cooling is concerned. Until I looked into it in the last few days I didn’t realize how large the radiator and charge air radiator were on the Ford. There is a huge difference in the physical size of cooling system components between the Ram and Ford. (Unless Ram has very recently upgraded?). The heat soaking is not going to be an issue when the intercooler has its own radiator.... and the secondary radiator is significantly larger than the air to air on the Ram. The Ford primary radiator has double the surface area as the Ram rad. With steel pistons Ford might even be allowing hotter egts than they did in the past. The 2020 Ford might not defuel as much as you think on a hot day,
In the big truck arena, Cummins actually sales a lot more and has a lot larger market share than the others by far. Especially for our customers looking for high horsepower for their application. These are not based on my beliefs or opinions either. They are based on sales data provided by HDAA along with sales data from our 130+ medium and heavy duty dealerships. So don't confuse your bias opinions as facts. I will also say that the 6.7L Cummins has been the highest selling engine in medium duty truck and buses since it has been out. Mainly because it makes more sustained and rated power than the other engines, like the 6.7L Powerstroke, in these applications.
You still have a lot to learn about engines. For one, it is not just how big their cooling system is, but also how cool the incoming air is, how quickly it can move that air through the system, and how much of that heat is retained. That is different between each engine along with intake and emissions system design. One design may get hot enough to need things like steel pistons while another may not. One design may have a more restrictive turbine housing on their turbo for quicker spool causing higher EGT's while another may not.
It is not as simple as you think it is and one system can be effected by multiple systems so basing assumptions off of the specs of one system is only telling part of the story. For example, due to the reverse flow design of the 6.7L Powerstroke, it may need that larger cooling system to accommodate for the high localized heat on the upper portion of the engine like the heads. Or, also due to the reverse flow design, you may have a more restricting intake manifold like some of the earlier 6.7L did to to fit the 6.7L in the engine bay. This restriction will cause higher EGT's.
Then there is the engine design itself. Certain engine design generally run hotter than others. I will say, that heat and cooling system requirements/design is one the reasons why V8 engines like the Cat 3408 never made it in the heavy duty truck industry and it is dominated by inline engines. Same with larger generators. The inline systems do not require as big of a cooling system to keep them cool. So just saying that one engine is better based on cooling capacity is really an ignorant way of looking at it.
Also, heat soaking is an issue on all water cooled intercoolers under sustained loads regardless of whether or not they have their own cooling system. The benefits of a water cooled system is better short burst power like in drag racing/tractor pulls or posting high power numbers on the dyno.- "I realize that had Ram not stuck the 5.9 Cummins under its hood back in 89 we might not have seen the Duramax."
You mean this one? "1988"
- It really isn’t about favourite brand truck for me. I realize that had Ram not stuck the 5.9 Cummins under its hood back in 89 we might not have seen the Duramax. Had we not seen the Duramax or the Cummins in Ram and Chevy who knows what Ford would be trying to pass off as a diesel in their pickup. So I really appreciate what competition amongst the three has done. I am not impressed with Cummins in the big truck arena where the newer Cummins engines are referred to as boat anchors.... that might prevent me from placing the 6.7 Cummins on a pedestal like many Ram guys do. I am kind of placing the Powerstroke on a pedestal, not because it’s Ford, but because I believe the 6.7 Powerstroke has almost done for the pickups what the 5.9 Cummins did in the 90s and the Duramax did in the 2000s. It was first to introduce the compacted iron block, Ford was bold enough to incorporate reverse flow heads, they are first to have steel pistons. I believe the Powerstroke has raised the bar as far as cooling is concerned. Until I looked into it in the last few days I didn’t realize how large the radiator and charge air radiator were on the Ford. There is a huge difference in the physical size of cooling system components between the Ram and Ford. (Unless Ram has very recently upgraded?). The heat soaking is not going to be an issue when the intercooler has its own radiator.... and the secondary radiator is significantly larger than the air to air on the Ram. The Ford primary radiator has double the surface area as the Ram rad. With steel pistons Ford might even be allowing hotter egts than they did in the past. The 2020 Ford might not defuel as much as you think on a hot day,
4x4ord wrote:
ShinerBock wrote:
Now imagine each tune going up the Ike at 80F. What would happen? Would I need to back down the 400 rwhp heavy tow tune? No, and I could not back it down even further even if I had to. Would I need to back down the 475 rwhp tune? Yes, I would probably have to back it down to my 400 rwhp heavy tow tune shortly after starting. I may be able to utilize the the 475 rwhp on the onramp at the start of the test to get a good 30-60 mph head start, but I would eventually have to back it down to my 400 rwhp as temps got hot.
Now, will the times of my 400 rwhp tune at both temps change that much? How about my 475 rwhp tune will it's time change that much between the two temps?
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say .... if you ran your 400 rwhp tune up the Ike with 30000 lbs in tow on an 80 degree day vs a 30 degree day, do you think your times would change much?
Not nearly as much as it would versus running the 375 hp tuned engine at 30F and then having to back down to 400 rwhp at 80F run. I am not trying to bash your favorite truck or anyone else's Super duty. I am just saying that from my experiences and knowledge of electronically controlled diesels, the high power rated engines generally back down to the same power levels as the lower power rated units under sustained loads.
A plus for the Powerstroke is that unloaded or loaded with really cold temps, it will be quicker since the Cummins(even though it is the slightly bigger engine) cannot make more than 400 hp do to the max amount of fuel allowed in it's tuning. The PSD can make up to 475 hp due to a higher amount of fuel allowed in its tuning. However, that changes as temps rise. The Cummins is already at the conservative safe limits while the PSD will have to decrease its fuel to get to safer limits.
Tuned and deleted, the Powerstroke and Cummins make about the same amount of horsepower at the wheels which is roughly around 525 hp (@ 600hp at the crank). They both have the same fuel pump now and deliver the same volume of fuel, but both are limited by their turbo. The CP4 can get you up to around 600 rwhp until you start running out of fuel. The older CP3 on the Cummins was able to pump more volume of fuel and limit out around 700 rwhp. Change the turbo on either engine(like I did) and you will more hp and/or be able to run the same hp at safer temps. The new L5P Duramax tuned and deleted, can get up to around 550 rwhp deleted, again due to it's turbo and intake design.- Question for all of you. Since this is an RV forum, how many of us will ever haul 30,000 lbs up to the IKE tunnel? I think that all three, (Ford, GM, or Ram) could tow 22,000 lbs up the IKE at nearly identical times if traffic and acceleration were the same and the speed limit was adhered to during the test. Time of day maybe an issue on a warm day.
I would bet Cummins standard engine w the Ram tranny would be right in the mix also. The point is probably the percentage of RVers hauling 22,000 lbs is less than 10% and the percentage hauling 30,000 is almost non existent. The other thing that would be interesting to know on the tests that if the cruise control was set on 60 mph would the times have been different?
Another thing, you look at Motorhomes using the 6.7 L Cummins w an Allison, they play this game w HP and tranny size. It always upsets me. For $170,000 you get 300 Hp, for $200,000 you get maybe 340 Hp right up to about 380 Hp for $ 300,000. But you buy a Ram pickup and get 400 hp for $80,000.
That’s why I own a fifth wheel right now. Thursday I rode in a 2013 Chevy LT DRW. Nice truck. Quiet and the Allison acts way different than the Aisin. GM is not playing this rating game, wonder why? Without Cummins, Ram would have been out of business years ago.
All of them are great trucks today, its the best for RVers. ShinerBock wrote:
Now imagine each tune going up the Ike at 80F. What would happen? Would I need to back down the 400 rwhp heavy tow tune? No, and I could not back it down even further even if I had to. Would I need to back down the 475 rwhp tune? Yes, I would probably have to back it down to my 400 rwhp heavy tow tune shortly after starting. I may be able to utilize the the 475 rwhp on the onramp at the start of the test to get a good 30-60 mph head start, but I would eventually have to back it down to my 400 rwhp as temps got hot.
Now, will the times of my 400 rwhp tune at both temps change that much? How about my 475 rwhp tune will it's time change that much between the two temps?
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say .... if you ran your 400 rwhp tune up the Ike with 30000 lbs in tow on an 80 degree day vs a 30 degree day, do you think your times would change much?- Becky
- goodness...
- my
