4X4Dodger wrote:
E&JPNW wrote: "Now place a 25' to 35' trailer with all of its weight and the lever it has between the center line of the axle assembly and the tongue coupler. I wish I knew how to place illistrations on here, I will try to paint a word picture. Picture an arrow pointing at the pivot point in a lateral fashon at both a 5th wheel hitch and a conventional hitch. This of course is latter force. Sure 5th wheel hitches have lateral force exerted against them. The difference is that because of its placement over the center line of the rear axle (or slightly forward of it) you lose the lever effect that a conventional hitch would exert against the TV because of its distance from the center line of the rear axle."
Answer:
I believe you are thinking in only one plane. The ball hitch is either equal to or BELOW the frame of the truck. this position is much more difficult to move the truck on a lateral plane than the 5th wheel.
I'm speaking in terms of through the length of the vehicle, not the height of the vehicle. You will be able to rock it in a "fish tail" motion. You will not be able to as effectively with a 5th wheel hitch.
I've got to ask the question, what are you thinking of when we use the term, "lateral force?" My understanding is, a force from the side in some fashion, again through the length of the vehicle on a horizontal plane. So yes, for the sake of our discussion I am thinking in only one plane as these are the forces exerted from a sway condition.
The 5th wheel is much higher ABOVE the frame with most of the trailer weight still above that to act as a lever against the 5th wheel and the frame. This equals a longer lever arm = more force. Thus you need that big plate of the 5th wheel to react out those forces down thru the frame.
In this picture, you are looking at this from a vertical plane, top down through the fifth wheel. I believe what you are describing is pitch. A vertical side to side leaning. If you are understand this to be sway, then I can certainly understand your dilemma as an anti sway device would certainly NOT not help in any way resolve this condition.
But this has little to do with TRAILER sway. What you are talking about would be the trailer swaying the TV. If the TV is doing its job and the rig is set up correctly that's not going to happen (except in extreme cases of out of control stops or similar)
Answer this simple physics question for me:
Tell me what two principals of Physics are represented by the HAND CART? (the two wheeled upright kind)
I don't ask this to embarrass you but to understand and hopefully show you that the physics you believe are reacting on the TV just aren't correct.
4X4Dodger, I'm not embarrassed. I've explained that I'm not an engineer and I'll add, neither a physicist. All due respect to you, I suspect neither are you, though I could be wrong. I think if you were, we would have a mathematical explanation of your hypothesis. I've seen/read comments on this forum from engineers and they are very descriptive in their scientific language and explanation of things. You and I are having a time of it trying to describe our point of view.
So.., I'll ask you to explain yourself with the hand cart principal and ask you how that applies to what we are talking about for me and the sake of other readers.
Think about this by looking at the design of most of these sway bar systems, they simply react out the forces of the trailer's side to side motion by exerting a countervailing force against the tongue. NOT THE TV. If your hypothesis were correct all that bar and chain mechanism that works against the trailer would be aimed FORWARD.
They work in unison on a lateral plain. At the risk of starting a fire storm, the premimum namely the HA and PP are designed so that the trailer CANNOT turn (sway) unless there is input from the TV. I invite you to look at the sticky in the travel trailer section on the HA and how it works. The other conventional hitches typically use friction of some sort to counteract a sway condition where the trailer is whipping side to side. Kind of like fish tailing in a manner of speaking. The difference between the conventional friction type is that friction can be overcome. With a PP or HA, if the hitch is in tension it shouldn't be able to. In theory the whole unit (TV & TT) would move as a unit.
E&J: "I'm not saying that there arent lateral forces on a fifth wheel hitch, I'm saying there isn't leverage in the same manner as a conventional hitch."
Answer: leverage is leverage it changes with the length of the lever. Not with the hitch type. If anything the 5th wheel is able to exert MORE leverage than the ball type.
Please explain? On a horizontal plane where a 5th wheel is able to exert more leverage? Am I missing something?
4X4Dodger, I've asked this question before and you still have yet to answer it. Please describe (on a horizontal pane) the leverage in relation to a 5th wheel hitch? I can't see it, unless I'm missing something. I've described I think quite clearly the leverage in relation to a conventional hitch on a horizontal plane. Unless we are on different terms (and I think we are), lateral to me is on a horizontal plane.
5th wheels are placed over the axles PRIMARILY for WEIGHT reasons. This takes advantage of the Carrying capacity of the P/u. There MAY be some advantages of stability (but not if the trailer is loaded wrong) but the reason 5th wheel travel trailers were designed in the first place was to provide a much bigger trailer (with a much higher tongue weight) to meet consumer demand for more space and amenities...it was not to reduce sway.
My conclusions from looking closely at these hitches and thinking deeply about the problem:
The VAST MAJORITY of sway problems are driver induced or improperly loaded trailers (same thing really)
Sway bars were a response to a lucrative market niche of the above that wanted to have a mechanism that damps out their inputs.
"Sway bars" better described as equalizing bars or weight distribution bars/spring bars. If your idea of these is as I suspect, then you have a misunderstanding of what the function of these bars are for. As I have just more accurately described them, the PRIMARY purpose for these bars was originally to distribute weight between the TV and TT. Over the course of the evolution of these spring bars sway control has been incorporated into the design.
More often than not, a 1 ton or even a 3/4 ton truck will not need these bars to tow a TT as they have sufficient suspension to "carry" the weight of a given TT. Reality is there are more 1/2 ton TV (P/U's and SUV's) on the road than their larger counterpart TV's. This is where the weight distribution are absolutely necessary to properly carry a said tongue weight. Without these spring bars it would be very unsafe to tow these trailers though it is done by unwitting folks.
Again, at the risk of starting a firestorm. The HA and PP hitches have sway control incorporated into the design of the hitch. you can tow without the spring bars and still have the added benefit of sway control (horizontal plane). Many (not all) of the friction type sway control conventional hitches NEED the spring bars as this is part of the source of friction.
While this product may have it's benefits under certain road conditions and driving conditions (driver input) They are NOT NECESSARY to haul a trailer safely.
If you have a 1 ton or in many cases 3/4 ton truck, I think you'd be hard pressed to get an argument. However, look in the owners manual of vehicles that are designed to tow in some capacity and they will state that you need a weight distribution hitch to tow weights greater than X. These hitches that you are adamant about not needing and blantantly stating are not a safety device is quite irresponsible IMHO. For someone to read this and view you as an "authority" (yep they are out there) puts them at risk and everyone around them.
We have two things that we are talking about. 1) anti sway device, and 2) (I bring up) weight distribution. While they are not necessarily one and the same, in many instances they are simply because this is how the MFG's have decided to make them. With a conventional hitch you can have one without the other, you have to know what you are getting. I will state that having a weight distribution hitch may be necessary depending on the TV and the trailer behind the TV. While it is good to have and can be a safety device, sway control may not be absolutely necessary. Again, this depends on a lot of factors including the size of the TV & TT, loading of TT, hitch arangement, driving conditions etc.
Dont expect Trailer Life or its editors to ever print a fair article on this subject as there is just too much money at stake. TL is owned by Good Sam Ent. and so is Camping World. A great deal of income is derived from the Advertising and sales of these hitches by the GS Enterprises companies.
Playing the devils advocate, do you have anything to substantiate your claim? While I'm sure they derive revenue from advertising, and perhaps sales, you make a pretty bold claim without any proof. You are accusing them of the very thing you are doing, making claims without any proof. Hitch sales, really?
Unless and until an independent third party similar to consumer reports does some real scientific testing on these products and draws a conclusion one way or the other I will remain a healthy skeptic.
To all of those that use them and believe in them this is certainly your prerogative. But I think you should exercise some care in claiming that they are a SAFETY device. I don't believe that has ever been proven...
And while your stories of roll-overs and radically swaying trailers are compelling they remain only ANECDOTAL evidence...without real investigation, rather than a lot of assumptions of what really happened.
But one of the most telling things for me is this. The people who owned my trailer before me used one of these hitches and it came with the trailer. I have never bothered to assemble it or use it and I have absolutely no sway problem with driving this trailer. In fact my first trip with this trailer was Chicago to Minot ND (over 1000 miles) during one of the worst wind and snow storms of the season...and NO SWAY. Much of the time roads were snow and ice covered and the wind blew as much as 40 MPH and more..
All due respect 4X4Dodger, what's the difference between your anecdotal story and another. Should yours carry more weight because you feel so strongly about it? Also, to your point about it not being proven. It hasn't been dis-proven either.
edited by author for clarity
