Anyone Install Lithium ion Batteries? Results?

Not sure why some many are dismissing lithium batteries as not being safe. Is it because when you ship them you have to put a label on them that says "cannot travel in a passenger aircraft"? Well neither can lead acid batteries.
Does anyone ever consider the real dangers of lead acid batteries? They explode quite often, kind of like a hydrogen bomb. Just do a little web search for lead acid battery explosions.

I'm with "silversand" as I want absolutely nothing to do with Lithium batteries in an RV until they are truely safe and competitively priced with other forms of proven reliable electric current storage products in the marketplace. Money is not the real concern but spending large sums to put my wife and myself in real danger is plain idiotic in my eyes. 3 cheers for you guinea pigs and I'll just observe.

200, 300, 500 lbs of extra battery weight doesn't concern me a bit as it's a tiny fraction of the total unit/rig's weight and there's so many enhancements to a properly designed and engineered truck to safely handle the additional tiny fraction of added weight that are so well known and proven.

Jfet wrote:
The real bottom line is that when LiFePO4 or other battery technology really is better than AGM, you will be able to buy them locally and in stock.

The technology is there. The application is lagging....as with everything. And it takes volume to lower prices just like all new tech.

pianotuna wrote:
Hi,

If you needs must have the capacity it would be cheaper to get Surrette's 480 x 4 = 960 amp-hours; 4 x $297 = $1288.00

480 is only model number on those apparently as they are rated at 375 Ahr http://rollsbattery.com/public/specsheets/S-480.pdf

so you'd need 6 to get 562.5 usable Ahr @ 12V

The real bottom line is that when LiFePO4 or other battery technology really is better than AGM, you will be able to buy them locally and in stock.

Bottom line is that the cost advantage of lead acid is quickly disappearing and there many cases where you can easily justify the LiFePO4 batteries.

For me for instance, I'll certainly never get the 3000 cycles....but if I were to consider them against some of the pricier AGMs (buying pricey for perceived or real reliability),then they are an easy win even if I only ever use 500 - 1000 cycles particularly since the weight and volume are quite a bit less.

pianotuna wrote:
Hi,

Physical storage for 10 six volt jars is an issue. I thought golf cart batteries were 232 amp-hours (per pair).

Cell count does matter, so I'd prefer really big two volt cells myself. Can't afford them, so it is moot.

hbski wrote:

pianotuna wrote:
Hi,

If you needs must have the capacity it would be cheaper to get Surrette's 480 x 4 = 960 amp-hours; 4 x $297 = $1288.00

right and you could also do that 480+ usable with 10 104 Ah FLA GC batteries from sams for $890

Sams carries 2 usually 232 Ah for $112 and 208 for $89 I was thinking in per pair usable....should have put 208 and yes...even the 450 lbs and probably sizable volume of those Surrettes would also be tricky to place in many rigs

Hi,

Physical storage for 10 six volt jars is an issue. I thought golf cart batteries were 232 amp-hours (per pair).

Cell count does matter, so I'd prefer really big two volt cells myself. Can't afford them, so it is moot.

hbski wrote:

pianotuna wrote:
Hi,

If you needs must have the capacity it would be cheaper to get Surrette's 480 x 4 = 960 amp-hours; 4 x $297 = $1288.00

right and you could also do that 480+ usable with 10 104 Ah FLA GC batteries from sams for $890

Anyhow, I'm not really advocating one or the other.....just trying to provide info because I have been looking into LiFePO4 batteries, because as a TCer, the space and weight savings are very beneficial.

Jfet wrote:

hbski wrote:

Jfet wrote:

hbski wrote:
Ballpark numbers:

Lifeline AGM 31 $360 125 Ah (62.5 usable) 1000 cycles 74 lbs

pennies per usable Ah*cycle = 360*100/(62.5*1000) = 0.576

HIPAQ 9kWh $3350 700 Ah (560 usable) 3000 cycles ~220 lbs

pennies per usable Ah*cycle = 3350*100/(560*3000) = 0.199


IF you have use for that much capacity AND you can use all the cycles (understanding that you can also move the bank to a new rig when the time comes), then LiFePO4 would be 2.88 times cheaper along with it’s many other benefits. This is only one example, and other solutions exist which display that LiFePO4 is cheaper even at lower capacities as well. Even with this example, IF you had the desire or need for the 560 usable Ah, the up front cost doesn’t even prohibit LiFePO4.

560 usable Ah LiFePO4 (1 Balqon 9kWh HIPAQ) = $3350
562.5 usable Ah lifeline AGM (9 – 31XTs) = $3240

All good until you realize that LiFePO4 degrades with age, temperature, cycles. To reach 3000 cycles will take 30 years if you use your camper 100 times a year. A generous assumption would only be a capacity loss of 3% per year. Even with that small loss, in 10 years you are going to be at 1000 cycles and 70% of original capacity.

The AGM is also going to lose some capacity with age, but because it will be replaced earlier, this ageing is not as much a factor.

After about year 10, the AGM starts to look better as the batteries will be fresh while the LiFePO4 will be seriously down on capacity.


But Lithium has advantages, I agree. It is almost there for the consumer. When Costco starts carrying 12V 200AH drop in Lithium batteries with a 3 year warranty, then we are there.

This is only one example, and other solutions exist which display that LiFePO4 is cheaper even at lower capacities as well. Even with this example, IF you had the desire or need for the 560 usable Ah, the up front cost doesn’t even prohibit LiFePO4.

560 usable Ah LiFePO4 (1 Balqon 9kWh HIPAQ) = $3350
562.5 usable Ah lifeline AGM (9 – 31XTs) = $3240

Well if I wanted that many AH I would go with Lifeline 6V 300AH AGMs which are about $350 each. I also would run them down to 70% and realize I am only going to get 500 to 600 cycles.

This would give me 12V at 900AH (630AH useable at 70%) for $2100.

I would invest the $1250 I didn't spend in a biotech and over the three or four years I use the Lifelines it would quadruple to $6,000, making the batteries free.

And you'd be degrading your capacity faster too with the deeper DOD.....and can do the same with the lifepo4 cells as well...deeper DOD for more usable Ah and shorter cycle life......in fact might be the way to go with those since it basically takes a full timer to be able to use up all the cycle life otherwise