Anyone Install Lithium ion Batteries? Results?

Hi,

AGM are pretty much maintenance free. This can become a chore if you have many jars to feed and water.

Jfet,

304 lbs and flooded batteries are aprox the same weight which is only 44 lbs more than Cundiff's Li batteries. The cost for 4 flooded is around $400 around here which is 1/4 of what AGM's cost. Even increasing the flooded to six batteries is only approx $600 which is still a mere 40% of the cost of 4 AGM's.

Our TC rig has 3 group 31 deepcycle 225 minute reserve at a 23 amp constant draw load times the 3 batteries and the weight is only roughly 225 lbs max for all 3. My flooded last a min of 6 years to over 9 years. So please tell me where the big advantage of AGM's or Li batteries is at 4 to 25 times the cost? It sure isn't reasonable life or weight of the batteries as that's not much different.

Space required is different but it really doesn't matter at all because 2 of our 3 batteries are in the bed of the truck which puts their weight down low and if the batteries weren't there, the space wouldn't be used at all. Then add in that I still have the same usable space for 2 more same batteries on the passenger side of the truck's bed which would mean 5 total flooded batteries with a total weight of 380 lbs VS 260 lbs for Cundiff's LI bank. 120 lbs more, big deal! I simply can't justify the drastic cost with so little gain. Truck's bed has a Rhino sprayed in liner up and over the sides and the bed batteries always have full ventilation constantly so off gassing isn't remotely an issue at all.

I'm very open minded to new technology that's proven to be so much better and competitive but something is so missing here!

Four Lifeline GPL31XT AGM batteries which are 12V 125AH and 76 pounds each would give you 6000 watt-hr maximum, 3000 watt-hr useable at 50% drain 1000 cycles, 304 pounds.

If you could be happy with 500 cycles you could get 4200 watt-hr out of them according to Lifeline cycle specs.

Cost is about $1500 with free shipping from powerstride.

50 cycles a year would be using your camper about 5 to 10 times a year which probably is well above average. After 10 years there will probably be a newer better tech.

Not sure what kind of rig can handle 500 or more pounds so easily as one poster believes. We have just about 9.8 kW hours of LFP which gives about 7.9 kW hrs of usable energy. The battery suite is 260 pounds and equivalent PbS would weigh about 700 to 800 pounds and four times or so the volume. The battery suite, battery chargers (if we ever need to use line power or generator and we have done once in close to 13 months), controllers, inverter etc fit in the forward compartment Open Range has for a large Onan generator. We would be over pin weight with PbS. The system has worked extremely well for us in a light weight fifth wheel. There are ongoing discussions on LFP for residence and trailer/caravan on Solar Forums. The Aussies are going full bore on this

Jfet wrote:

hbski wrote:

hbski wrote:
.....Balqon is really into commercial applications and maybe that's why they are the cheapest around. It is also a good indication that they will likely be around for a while since they have a lot of contracts for commercial electric vehicles.

cheers,
hbski

Hmmm, financials don't look to good on Balqon though, so that may not be true. Unfortunate....next nearest LiFePO4 cell vendors seem to all be twice the price or more.

I think you just discovered why the financials don't look too good on Balqon :)

Only Amazon can get away with not making a profit for decades.

Actually their core business is not LiFePO4 batteries, it's electric drive systems. Similar to how Walmart will sell something you can get at CW for half of CWs price

They just get huge economies of scale with the batteries and thus can let them out the door cheap. But apparently the heavy electric truck business isn't treating them too well even though they have a substantial amount of backlog. :(

hbski wrote:

hbski wrote:
.....Balqon is really into commercial applications and maybe that's why they are the cheapest around. It is also a good indication that they will likely be around for a while since they have a lot of contracts for commercial electric vehicles.

cheers,
hbski

Hmmm, financials don't look to good on Balqon though, so that may not be true. Unfortunate....next nearest LiFePO4 cell vendors seem to all be twice the price or more.

I think you just discovered why the financials don't look too good on Balqon :)

Only Amazon can get away with not making a profit for decades.

hbski wrote:
.....Balqon is really into commercial applications and maybe that's why they are the cheapest around. It is also a good indication that they will likely be around for a while since they have a lot of contracts for commercial electric vehicles.

cheers,
hbski

Hmmm, financials don't look to good on Balqon though, so that may not be true. Unfortunate....next nearest LiFePO4 cell vendors seem to all be twice the price or more.

tony lee wrote:
I'm not opposed to new technology once it matures beyond the tinkering stage and enthusiastic early adopter confirmation bias stage to become a bonafide plug and play consumer product, but I do find it a bit amusing to read projected cents per Ah costs based on totally theoretical number of charge-discharge cycles AND which totally ignore the opportunity costs of paying 10 times the going rate ten years early. Add that cost into the equation plus add the costs of the inevitable human or electronic failure resulting in destruction of an expensive item, and I suggest the supposed economic benefits would suddenly evaporate.

Not sure if you're referring to my posts or not, but.....

1) Similar logic when I advised my cousin who was developing a plan to go full time to us Golf Cart batteries instead....of course that was a year or so ago and he was looking into drop and go units (like Smart Battery) that are quite a bit more than that Balqon unit AND he was looking at bus conversions (lot's of space and weight capacity).

2) Larger scale LiFePO4 batteries are in wide use in a lot of areas, electric vehicle conversions, electric bicycles, Ham radio, many enthusiasts have demonstrated their ability to reach significant cycle levels.

3) If someone were willing to pay the upfront cost for lifelines or another premium brand then the Balqon pricing (cheapest I've been able to find) makes it a wash on cost so you'd only need to get your 1000 cycles to be even. AND you'd be getting the benefit of less weight, less volume and less self discharge and better discharge profile.

4) In case you didn't notice, I use a lot of IFs and ANDs because I'm not sold either for MY particular application.

5) I only throw this info out there because so many are willing to dismiss it as a possibility out of hand with little to no factual evidence to back that position up

For me, in a TC, the reductions in weight and volume are worth quite a bit, but again still not sold. I actually wouldn't have considered it at all before my cousin recently pointed me to that Balqon site and their pricing is amazing for what you get IF the info is solid. 5 year warranty on the drop in solutions and on the single cells.

Balqon is really into commercial applications and maybe that's why they are the cheapest around. It is also a good indication that they will likely be around for a while since they have a lot of contracts for commercial electric vehicles.

cheers,
hbski

I'm not opposed to new technology once it matures beyond the tinkering stage and enthusiastic early adopter confirmation bias stage to become a bonafide plug and play consumer product, but I do find it a bit amusing to read projected cents per Ah costs based on totally theoretical number of charge-discharge cycles AND which totally ignore the opportunity costs of paying 10 times the going rate ten years early. Add that cost into the equation plus add the costs of the inevitable human or electronic failure resulting in destruction of an expensive item, and I suggest the supposed economic benefits would suddenly evaporate.

2 Piece wrote:
Not sure why some many are dismissing lithium batteries as not being safe. Is it because when you ship them you have to put a label on them that says "cannot travel in a passenger aircraft"? Well neither can lead acid batteries.
Does anyone ever consider the real dangers of lead acid batteries? They explode quite often, kind of like a hydrogen bomb. Just do a little web search for lead acid battery explosions.

Actually Lifeline has a pretty good record:

In section 6.4 of the battery manual it says Concorde does not know of any Lifeline AGM that has failed due to thermal runaway.

AGM outgas only in extreme overcharging and even then not much. If the battery compartment is at all vented, then there will not be a risk of explosion.

http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/manual.pdf