Could VIA Motors be the next generation of tow vehicles?

Sodium-ion )salt water)atteries are an 'almost forever' battery that can be
discharged down to ZERO...often...with minimal degradation. So there
is no expected cost to replace in the time frames Lith-Ion batteries require

Also, no control chip per cell like Lith-Ion...nor delicate charge curve. No
hazardous chems/fumes. No explosive materials.

You guys talked about Telecon/Internet batteries...well they are going over
to Sodium-Ion (wind generators are almost all going over to them)

Problem for now, is that they are NOT packaged for automotive...yet

Gde trailer,
You must have overlooked my post in regards to "OUR" situation for our work commuter EV. Others may differ with their findings. A great % of OUR ELECTRIC SAVINGS is the fact, we are very privledge to CHARGE VEHICLE AT WORK at NO COST to us. Not everyone can do this. We are fortunate and never know if will change.

Again, we have a special Lease (no option to buy, nor did I want to buy a changing technology). UNLIMITED milage lease, Maintance is included as well as the collision portion of the insurance. (I think vehicle is treated like a corporate lease plan). I know this is very rare and un heard of by most folks. We were sorta lucky in being able to find and get on board with the lease very few dealers in the US could offer, in which only a few states were allocated, long waiting list etc. We have 1 of 1,100 vehicles produced during the 2013/2014 model years..aka COMPLIANCE vehicle.
Our Ice vehicle service performed by dealership and reflect their prices.(probably getting hosed as you say).service based on the computer maintance minder indicator on dash..avererage intervals. (Wish I could find a suitable manufacture acceptable tranny fluid...even pep boys turned us away to go to dealer because special tranny fluid required)
But the maintance cost savings is just an extra bonus. Yes, brakes are brakes and will wear, this vehicle has significant reduced wear due to what is called regenerative braking. (Every time foot is released from accelerator, the resistance of motor regenerating energy to put back into the battery pack and depending what mode my vehicle set at, can be aggressive ir mild) this slows vehicle down quite often enough that less required from brake pedal. My diesel truck has the turbo exhaust brake and is a much similiar feel when hauling with load and braking down a steep grade. Brake wear is reduced tremendously. Besides all that...above.

Did I go about "estimating" what the EV portion of our bill is costing us? Maybe in future we will invest in a EVSE charge (wifi smart sytem) station that reports and data logs exact consumption, but for now we will use the Leviton L1 and L2 EVSE units provided to us.

Thank you for your angle on the subject matter, an EV (at this current time ??) might not work for you but for "OUR SITUATION" mention several post) :) it works for us.
It is certainly great to have the choices available to us in this day and age, now just a matter of having the means $$$. Everything comes at a price. :) LOL

yep, don't forget the PCV valve. mine for my Toyota from Toyota costs $7.95. Oh, they estimate $28.95 to replace it in their shop.
bumpy

No doubt battery costs have to be factored into long term costs of an electric vehicle. The leaf battery is about 5000 bucks so if it needs to be replaced after 10 years it would add 500 dollars to the annual operating costs. Having said that the required range of most EV users is still in the 20 to 40 mile range so more than likely the battery would not have to be replaced even with the 20 percent degradation expected after 10 years.

Brakes, it depends on the EV I suppose but most of the braking is done by regenerative braking on most if not all EV's. Ev maintenance is less and thats documented. Hoses, belts. air filters, fuel filters, oil filers, various oils, PCV valves etc etc. Typically the EV driver tops up his washer fluid once or twice a year and that is it. I have a hepa air filter for the cab that should be changed every couple years but that has nothing to do with it being an EV. I don't think people should use blanket statements when talking either EV or ICE vehicles. The EV is very good at what it does when used as a commuter. If you only have one vehicle and you need to regularly travel long distances, then the EV, at least right now is not the right vehicle for you. Our EV was 18000 plus tax and yes there were some incentives in there. But thats the way it is, from the point of view of my wallet that makes it a very economical alternative to the ICE equivalent FOR MY SITUATION. Maybe not the next person but for us its awesome. There is also the fun factor, its simply hard to beat the EV driving experience...at least for me...and everybody that has got behind the wheel of our little EV convertible. Of course, every is different. Bottom line, its not an ICE vehicle and doesn't do what they do, it is very good though at what it was designed to do.

JMHO

MegaWonder wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:

Big Katuna wrote:
Check out energy prices for PA on this website.

clicky

Sorry, those rates are only showing the ELECTRIC GENERATION COST, PERIOD. It does not include ALL of the other CHARGES and costs and taxes..

The generation rate IS THE CHEAP PART OF THE BILL.

You can not compare of make a good judgement by using those numbers.

As I stated and you have SEEN my numbers the ACTUAL electric bill IS costing me $.31 to $.35 PER Kwh. That is a long way away from using that website info at $.08 per Kwh!

Comparing the generation rate cost is apples to oranges and does not reflect the real and true cost of your electric bill.

When comparing an electric car to gas and the energy costs associated you need to take the ENTIRE ELECTRIC BILL Kwh cost, not the generation cost. Tells a more realistic story.

When you buy a gallon of gas you ARE PAYING state road taxes, Federal road excise taxes. Take those taxes away (IE ignore the taxes) and you will find an electric car IS many times more expensive to operate.

Gas/diesel unlike all other items is priced AT THE PUMP WITH THOSE TAXES FIGURED IN.

Anything else you buy the tax is not included in the price and is added on at the end of the sale.. Your electric bill does not include road taxes but it IS taxed after all the other charges are added to the bill.

Hi Gdtrailer,

I do not see how I am kidding myself on the fact that we are saving (in our case) work commuting cost over our 19mpg/20mpg gas vehicle. I admit i could be wrong but I am not seeing it could you enlighten me?

Our electric service is PSE&G. https://www.pseg.com/info/environment/ev/rlm-rs_rates.jsp

Our electric vehicle has been averaging 4.5 to 4.9 miles KwH during a 500 mile work week commute.
Looking at OUR electric bill I see a service charge $2.43 (this charge would be regardless if we have EV or not. Looking at break down of charges per Kwh and looking at the highest portion I see the following: Distribution Charges $0.067041588 and Supply $0.133809524 I see no other disclosure of any extra charges/taxes etc.

So can I take these 2 highest display charges add them together and get $0.200851112 Kwh charge?
Take that number and multiply how many Kwh I need to use to go 500 miles which would be at the lower efficiency 111.11111 Kwh? = aprox $22.32 to go 500 miles? *** But factor in the work per of charging 9 hrs a day at the nice rate and very appreciative of $0 So OUR electric bill is a heck of a lot less FOR US not kidding myself LOL.

To compare to our 19mpg..even at say 20mpg our gas vehicle..to go 500miles/20mpg=25gallons gas.
25gallons at even a low jersey rate of TODAYS RATE WAWa $2.00 (gasoline was over $2.50 gallon last year when we got EV) TODAY would cost us $50 per week.

Now add in the maintance oil filter changes 3k/5k @ $20 to $32 ..tire rotations 6k/7k @ $25/$30 ,Tranny flush 25k service ($120) more brake wear..and other ICE vehicle related issues.

Yes I guess I am kidding myself in OUR SITUATION.

Maintenance charges?

Lets see, my trucks take 7 quarts of oil at $2.40 per quart = $16.80 plus $3.50 for an oil filter, oil changes at 7,500 per manufacturers recommendation.

Tire rotations? You PAY for that?. GOOD tire shops DO NOT CHARGE to rotate. Your EV car will ALSO need tire rotation so really that doesn't get you out of that..

Tranny flush at 25K miles? You are visiting the wrong places, typical recommended tranny oil change is 60K miles.. Tranny oil is not expensive should be less than $50.. You have been getting soaked for service.

Brake wear?

You WILL have that on a EV car so that is a wash also, they DO have brakes..

As far as wearing out brakes, my trucks easily get 80K to 100K miles before I have to change the pads.. Typically my rotors last through two sets of pads..

If you are not getting more than 50K miles on a set of pads, you are doing something wrong.

You are forgetting one huge issue with a EV car.. The battery.

Your EV battery IS a "wear" item, typically most auto batteries will last 8-10yrs without problems.. But those batteries get charged as soon as the engine starts..

A EV car, not so.. I would hate to see the replacement cost of a EV battery, most likely that battery would cost more than the car is worth..

Good chance even with all the Gov backed "incentives" your EV car cost more than a ICE car.. So you still pay more but not in electric or gas..

Don't get me wrong, I am not against EV cars, if anything I have a rather vested interest in them since I do own a early 1900s electric car which was eventually converted to a GASOLINE engine!

I am a realist, EV cars can work in a "city" type of environment but like the EV cars of the past they still have huge limitations..

It also has been proven the "hybrid" cars (EV with ICE backup) tend to get worse highway mileage than a ICE only.. Hybrids do get a slightly better city mileage than a ICE car but the drawback is hybrids cost much more upfront.

If you weight the fact that modern day EVs really don't have all that much more "range" than the late 1890s you have to admit that we still are not there yet.

Put it into perspective, one of the early pioneers of EV cars by 1901, had realized that batteries were a huge weak spot and sold his company off and he joined another car company (which built steam cars) as chief engineer to design their FIRST ICE automobile..

Gdetrailer wrote:

Big Katuna wrote:
Check out energy prices for PA on this website.

clicky

Sorry, those rates are only showing the ELECTRIC GENERATION COST, PERIOD. It does not include ALL of the other CHARGES and costs and taxes..

The generation rate IS THE CHEAP PART OF THE BILL.

You can not compare of make a good judgement by using those numbers.

As I stated and you have SEEN my numbers the ACTUAL electric bill IS costing me $.31 to $.35 PER Kwh. That is a long way away from using that website info at $.08 per Kwh!

Comparing the generation rate cost is apples to oranges and does not reflect the real and true cost of your electric bill.

When comparing an electric car to gas and the energy costs associated you need to take the ENTIRE ELECTRIC BILL Kwh cost, not the generation cost. Tells a more realistic story.

When you buy a gallon of gas you ARE PAYING state road taxes, Federal road excise taxes. Take those taxes away (IE ignore the taxes) and you will find an electric car IS many times more expensive to operate.

Gas/diesel unlike all other items is priced AT THE PUMP WITH THOSE TAXES FIGURED IN.

Anything else you buy the tax is not included in the price and is added on at the end of the sale.. Your electric bill does not include road taxes but it IS taxed after all the other charges are added to the bill.

Hi Gdtrailer,

I do not see how I am kidding myself on the fact that we are saving (in our case) work commuting cost over our 19mpg/20mpg gas vehicle. I admit i could be wrong but I am not seeing it could you enlighten me?

Our electric service is PSE&G. https://www.pseg.com/info/environment/ev/rlm-rs_rates.jsp

Our electric vehicle has been averaging 4.5 to 4.9 miles KwH during a 500 mile work week commute.
Looking at OUR electric bill I see a service charge $2.43 (this charge would be regardless if we have EV or not. Looking at break down of charges per Kwh and looking at the highest portion I see the following: Distribution Charges $0.067041588 and Supply $0.133809524 I see no other disclosure of any extra charges/taxes etc.

So can I take these 2 highest display charges add them together and get $0.200851112 Kwh charge?
Take that number and multiply how many Kwh I need to use to go 500 miles which would be at the lower efficiency 111.11111 Kwh? = aprox $22.32 to go 500 miles? *** But factor in the work per of charging 9 hrs a day at the nice rate and very appreciative of $0 So OUR electric bill is a heck of a lot less FOR US not kidding myself LOL.

To compare to our 19mpg..even at say 20mpg our gas vehicle..to go 500miles/20mpg=25gallons gas.
25gallons at even a low jersey rate of TODAYS RATE WAWa $2.00 (gasoline was over $2.50 gallon last year when we got EV) TODAY would cost us $50 per week.

Now add in the maintance oil filter changes 3k/5k @ $20 to $32 ..tire rotations 6k/7k @ $25/$30 ,Tranny flush 25k service ($120) more brake wear..and other ICE vehicle related issues.

Yes I guess I am kidding myself in OUR SITUATION.

Big Katuna wrote:
Check out energy prices for PA on this website.

clicky

Sorry, those rates are only showing the ELECTRIC GENERATION COST, PERIOD. It does not include ALL of the other CHARGES and costs and taxes..

The generation rate IS THE CHEAP PART OF THE BILL.

You can not compare of make a good judgement by using those numbers.

As I stated and you have SEEN my numbers the ACTUAL electric bill IS costing me $.31 to $.35 PER Kwh. That is a long way away from using that website info at $.08 per Kwh!

Comparing the generation rate cost is apples to oranges and does not reflect the real and true cost of your electric bill.

When comparing an electric car to gas and the energy costs associated you need to take the ENTIRE ELECTRIC BILL Kwh cost, not the generation cost. Tells a more realistic story.

When you buy a gallon of gas you ARE PAYING state road taxes, Federal road excise taxes. Take those taxes away (IE ignore the taxes) and you will find an electric car IS many times more expensive to operate.

Gas/diesel unlike all other items is priced AT THE PUMP WITH THOSE TAXES FIGURED IN.

Anything else you buy the tax is not included in the price and is added on at the end of the sale.. Your electric bill does not include road taxes but it IS taxed after all the other charges are added to the bill.

Check out energy prices for PA on this website.

clicky

Gdetrailer wrote:

MegaWonder wrote:
So far the WORSE case scenario for our situation is not too bad as far as electric goes. We pay $.12 (I adjust for delivery to $ .18 per Kwh)
Only have 18Kw available of the 20Kw for use of the battery pack. So worse case charging every day a full 18Kw (which we do not..some is split up at work place) $3.24 per 18Kw gives 82/85mile range +-..Our electric bill only seem to have gone up $85/$90.. traveling aprox 500 per week.

Glad it works for us too..big plus is the charge at the work place perk. :)

Here is a page from our bill tracking for this year..





If you are only counting the cost per kw of electric and not the total bill you are only kidding yourself.

Electric in my area with all the separate charges plus taxes is costing $.31-$.35 per Kwh used.. 18 Kwh would for one vehicle would easily add $6.30 (perhaps a bit more since some of the charges varies and goes up with the more Kwh you use) per day..

That would mean just for ONE vehicle my electric bill would easily jump by $189 per month..

Multiply by 2 and that is $378 per month..

But note, since my electric cost goes UP per Kwh used that $378 is a very low estimate.. If I was to guess it would be closer to $450..

As I mentioned, I am spending about $400 per month on gas... So no savings to be had with an electric vehicle..

And I am on a LOW cost electric company.. I know folks who are on REA (AKA Rural Electric Association Co Op) and they pay COMMERCIAL RATES for residential power.. The Co Op was created from the Rural Electrification Act from back in the early 1900s, Co Ops buy the power at commercial rates add to that the service charges and resell power to the folks living off the main roads.

Electric cars are all smoke and mirrors to make you "feel good".

As far as electric charging stations, none in my area.. I understand the PA Turnpike has been considering it, but nothing as of yet..

Heck even where I work at, there is NO power outlets on the outside of the building, NONE.. Convincing companies to spend money on power outlets is going to be a real hard sell..

In PA Companies pay COMMERCIAL power rates, commercial power rates are TWICE to THREE times MORE than residential rates.. I suspect many other states are the same way so even if my company put in a power station it will cost me three to four times more than my home (companies will charge higher rates to recoup the cost of charging station PLUS the electric cost)..

First, thanks for taking the time to share your bill and experience with us. It is a real eye opener and as you said it doesn't look like there is much advantage to an electric vehicle in your area. I wonder how common that is. Its very simple and straight ahead where we are and there is no disputing the advantage of an electric vehicle even excluding lower maintenance costs etc. I think your post shows that the electric vehicle is not the right solution for everyone. A lot needs to be taken into account.

Thanks again.

MegaWonder wrote:
So far the WORSE case scenario for our situation is not too bad as far as electric goes. We pay $.12 (I adjust for delivery to $ .18 per Kwh)
Only have 18Kw available of the 20Kw for use of the battery pack. So worse case charging every day a full 18Kw (which we do not..some is split up at work place) $3.24 per 18Kw gives 82/85mile range +-..Our electric bill only seem to have gone up $85/$90.. traveling aprox 500 per week.

Glad it works for us too..big plus is the charge at the work place perk. :)

Here is a page from our bill tracking for this year..



If you are only counting the cost per kw of electric and not the total bill you are only kidding yourself.

Electric in my area with all the separate charges plus taxes is costing $.31-$.35 per Kwh used.. 18 Kwh would for one vehicle would easily add $6.30 (perhaps a bit more since some of the charges varies and goes up with the more Kwh you use) per day..

That would mean just for ONE vehicle my electric bill would easily jump by $189 per month..

Multiply by 2 and that is $378 per month..

But note, since my electric cost goes UP per Kwh used that $378 is a very low estimate.. If I was to guess it would be closer to $450..

As I mentioned, I am spending about $400 per month on gas... So no savings to be had with an electric vehicle..

And I am on a LOW cost electric company.. I know folks who are on REA (AKA Rural Electric Association Co Op) and they pay COMMERCIAL RATES for residential power.. The Co Op was created from the Rural Electrification Act from back in the early 1900s, Co Ops buy the power at commercial rates add to that the service charges and resell power to the folks living off the main roads.

Electric cars are all smoke and mirrors to make you "feel good".

As far as electric charging stations, none in my area.. I understand the PA Turnpike has been considering it, but nothing as of yet..

Heck even where I work at, there is NO power outlets on the outside of the building, NONE.. Convincing companies to spend money on power outlets is going to be a real hard sell..

In PA Companies pay COMMERCIAL power rates, commercial power rates are TWICE to THREE times MORE than residential rates.. I suspect many other states are the same way so even if my company put in a power station it will cost me three to four times more than my home (companies will charge higher rates to recoup the cost of charging station PLUS the electric cost)..