...
Brought the Excursion home Saturday with my brothers help. It's still a nice, clean looking truck, and he shook his head when he saw it again.
ScottG wrote:
I did a similar thing one time...
...How ever you proceed, I wish you the best of luck!
Cheers,
Scott
Thanks, Scott.
carringb wrote:
I wouldn't be too afraid of a used V10. After all, failures are rare, which also means wrecking yard V10s are dirt cheap. This is actually the first time I've heard of a V10 losing oil pressure, aside from running out of oil. I've read of a 5.4L losing oil pressure, but he had almost 1.4 million miles so he didn't even bother trying to diagnose why.
Besides, look at the bright side. Even a new factory V10 installed by a Ford dealer is still only half as much as replacing a fuel pump in a 6.7L Powestroke.
Bryan,
I know the V-10s have a good rep for durability. Whatever happened to mine doesn't make sense. A Ford tech that suggested that "a lost 'fiber' thrust washer may have dropped the
upper oil pressure", and said it wasn't common, but he had heard that it occurs on 5.4L's. Fiber???
I don't have a good Helms shop manual on these, but a check of my Chiltons #26667, SD Pick-ups/Excursion 1999-2006, states (on page 2C-23, step 11) that states, quote,
"The V8 and V10 gasoline engines have a two- piece thrust washer installed on the last (closest to the flywheel/ driveplate) main bearing saddle in the block, and a single thrust washer on the rear side of the last main bearing cap..."There is a picture of the 2-piece thrust washer on Chilton page 2C-20 under "bearing analysis", but I can't tell what material it is made of. If ANY engine thrust washer is fiber, I can see why they might fail. Federal Mogul(Sealed Power) shows
this #4705F steel backed babbitt for both the V8 & V10, so I'm not sure what "fiber washer" the young tech was talking about. Might be a dead end, but every rumor may have some truth.
The tech also said that the truck may recover oil pressure on the next start-up (current crank end play?), but it would not be permanent. He seemed to think that the washer was not replaceable... and I wouldn't be surprised if that is because Fords corporate solution is to just replace the engine.
One of local Napa's hardcopy catalogs show a non-stocked Sealed Power part #4507 5 thrust washer set for 1997-2007 V10's. I suppose a washer could break at 1.4 million miles on an otherwise perfectly good engine. I also saw your previous comment that he didn't autopsy it, if I remember the correct past thread. Too bad.
I'm in no hurry to start the truck, since an immediate cold shut-off would likely leave quite a bit of water condensation in the cylinders, not an extended condition I want to store it in, if that be the case. I don't really want to alternately pull plugs to mothball it with oil bath as usual either. I'm just thankful the plugs stayed in there this time. Regarding condensation, the engine was warm when I shut it down last. As a last resort, I will try starting it after much research.
Thanks for the reply.
shadows4 wrote:
Sorry to hear this Wes. I really miss my Ex. Since you can no longer buy a new one, if the rest of the truck is in good shape. I say put a new motor in! Good luck, John
Thanks, John. A new engine is tempting, but I do own an older F-250 now too. They both "have patina" and back each other up. But do I really need two big trucks? I guess I can borrow one to go get our TT if need be.
Golden_HVAC wrote:
I replace air conditioners all the time - sometimes just because I want a more energy efficient system. Sometimes the landlord just wants a new "Reliable" system, that they will not need as many service calls on it.
Usually commercial building owners want to replace a 20 year old system to increase reliability, and also to keep tenants happy. So maybe it is time to let someone repair your old Excursion that can do the work themselves, low cost labor and taking time to rebuilt it themselves.
Yet some say "Put in a new motor" and spend a lot of money to basically restore a unique truck like yours back to like new condition. They don't mind that they are spending $8,000 on a vehicle that you can buy another older one for less. They just want it that way.
I know a guy who put about 800 hours labor and $5,000 - $10,000 into a 1966 Econoline pickup. He put it on a 3/4 ton truck frame, made it a tilt cab, installed a newly built (by him) 460" engine and transmission. He claims it is better than a new truck, with $35 registration, and no sales tax (well except for the new parts he installed). In California a new $25,000 truck would have had a $300 plate fee each year, along with inspections, and more.
Fred.
Fred,
Selling the Excursion to an appreciative DIY buyer might be the answer. I don't think I'll live long enough to get Pioneer License Plates for it though. Actually I assumed the present broken motor would outlive me. A new 400K-mile-capable engine at my age seems like buying really green bananas. But then... money... I can't take it with me. :)
jus2shy wrote:
Have you looked into a jasper engine? We use them at our shop for our field vehicles. We seem to get a great price. They are re-manufactured units, but it seems like they do a fantastic job as we're getting quite a few miles out of the units we've purchased.
jus2,
Good to hear Jasper engines work good. That may be the answer as I understand installers make a little mark-up on them, and might gladly warranty labor too, like Ford garage does.
BobsYourUncle wrote:
With what you describe, chances are that you haven't wiped out any bearings and such.
Even with low or no oil pressure for a short time, the engine was not under load. It was idling. Yeah anything will rattle if the oil pressure drops off. But it takes a while for the residual oil to go away.
Kind of odd that the pressure would go away just sitting there idling.
Now that it has sat a bit and the engine is cold, you could try firing it back up and see if you have pressure. Pick the revs up a bit, not much, but a bit, say 15 - 1800 or so for a few seconds and see if there is pressure there.
But really, if all you have done is lost a pickup or oil pump, that is a relatively cheap fix. A 2000 Ex is still a nice truck and it would be a shame to sell it cheap broken. You won't get anything for it with the engine down.
It takes a while for the engine to sustain major damage from no oil. Had a friend once who drained the oil out of a slant 6 and put a brick on the gas pedal. It sat at valve float with no oil for about ten minutes before it ran out of gas and quit.
You engine is likely fine inside. Pull the engine, drop the pan and check the oil pump and pickup. Really, thats the only thing that could cause no oil pressure. Could be the drive rod that runs the pump too. A blown main bearing can cause low pressure but not no pressure. Putting a pump in it will not cost that much compared to a whole new engine.
Even if you pull the engine, put it on a stand and pull the bottom end apart for inspection to mike the crank and plastigage the bearings for peace of mind, it is still a lot cheaper than a total new engine. Pull the main and rod caps off and look at the bearings. It will be obvious if they are pooched. If the bearings are good then the rest of the engine is likely ok too. Cam bearings will be as worn as the rods and mains.
In that short a time, the pistons, rings, cam, lifters etc. will most likely be unaffected. It's just a matter of figuring out why the oil pressure went away and correcting it.
And it is cheaper than replacing the truck.....
If it were mine, I'd fix it rather than looking at a new Jasper engine or FoMoCo long block.
Bob,
I'm inclined to do what you are suggesting, or at least gamble $400, $500 for lifting the engine enough to pull the pan, timing cover and look. Since I realised the cam followers are roller, I don't think there is any significant damage either. The collapsed automatic hydraulic tappet adjusters have about 1/16th inch travel according to Chiltons. That accounts for the horrid lifter racket I heard, but is hardly enough to cause damage.
Rather than start it, I would prefer to disable the fuel and crank it with a manual oil guage to see if there is any oil pressure whatsoever. After the pan is off, if the apparent large leak is not immediately obvious, I suppose I could pump air into the oil galleys and listen. There is no oil pump rod, as in the old cam driven distributor engines. The oil pump is keyed directly to the front crank snout, right behind the cam chain cover. But it could have sheared the key for some reason. Cheap fix once it's apart. The scary thing is, why would the pump jam??
TRIVIA:
I once had a buddy whose son ripped a hole in his oil pan and then drove home. The engine still ran after the pan was fixed, but it used oil afterwards.
My neighbor mowed his front lawn with no oil in his Briggs, and suffered no apparent consequence after he finally put the plug back in and added oil. I found new respect for Briggs and Stratton.
I once had a 1957 Ford with a temporary emergency 272 Y-block engine taken from a severely abused Demolition Derby car that, consequently, used scads of oil. I ran out of oil (light came on) about 30 miles out of town, late one winter night. Heck of a bearing racket (it had solid lifters).
I thought I might as well stop soon start walking to avoid a thrown rod and no car at all. As I let up on the throttle, I noted the oil sloshed forward, the engine got quiet and the light went out. I made it back to town by decellerating every minute or so to re-oil everything.
With more jugs of 40 weight oil, I used it the rest of the winter for college. It didn't clank any worse than it had already been doing on cold start-up. I suppose 40 weight takes a while to start moving in the winter. ;)
Yes, replacing the truck is the most expensive option.
nremtp143 wrote:
If you have to replace the engine, call everywhere for prices! And I mean everywhere. Not just the dealers in your area, but all the local auto parts stores as they sell engines too. Also try Jasper Engines. Most come with good warranties. Then find a reputable, privately owned shop around you to put the engine in. Warranty still intact and a lot less money.
nremtp143,
I wonder if low bid is wise. But if warranteed, why not? Thanks.
BigBaron wrote:
Is the rest of the car sound? We have a 2003 TV that is at that point of being scrapped if another major repair occurs. Little stuff just stops working-light here, wire there, switch, and on and on...
There's bound to be someone else that this has happened to. Time to search forums and stuff!
BigBaron,
There are small annoying items that pop up from time to time. One example, common on these, is the door switches for interior lights need adjustment. Unfortunately they are inside the door panels.
I did do an oil search, but it was hard for me to to pin down a good phrase on this forum. But "ford v10 no oil pressure", on Google, yields several possibilities. I condider most as unresolved, as nobody comes back with that "Eureka, I found it!" that we all hope for. Guess I gotta keep trying till I get closer to the end of the internet. :)
Thanks for the encouragement.
fireman41 wrote:
If you like the truck rebuild or replace the engine and sink a few bucks in other places. Replacing the engine is still cheaper than replacing the truck.
fireman41,
I keep coming back to that. It is still cheaper to repair than replace. Thanks.
pasusan wrote:
I agree with saving your Excursion if possible since they don't make them anymore. But, only you know what condition the rest of the truck is in - if the body is rotting out forget it. We live in the snowbelt of Lake Erie and salt is used here extensively with serious consequences to our vehicles.
Oh - and I would advise against buying a junkyard engine. We did it once and after all that work to remove and install - the main bearings were shot - had great oil pressure and sounded smooth till it warmed up.
We have taken to buying new (used) vehicles down south and if needed replace the engine with a Jasper. We have 2 daily drivers that have Jasper engines in them - one from 2001, and one from 2008. We've had good luck with them and would do it again.
I'm not talking about our tow vehicle, but if we do have engine trouble with it we might just get another Jasper... Unless we decide to spring for an F150 Ecoboost, that is. ;)
The truck has some underbody frame rust after all these years. But it appears sound yet. ND unfortunately started salting before it was born. Lately they have been using beet juice (sugar beets) which might be better?
Since a used engine was quoted me to cost half of new ($5k, Ford), I am reluctant to spend $2500 on a pig-in-a-poke. But I'll keep looking. I already have a 3/4 ton pick-up, so maybe buy another
good running truck (body damage?) and rob parts to keep a beloved SUV? I have a buddy that rebuilds Broncos and loves them, as I expect you do. Nice outfit, by the way.
kw/00 wrote:
I would keep it, you seem like u have a great pull dog, so I would replace the engine or simply have it rebuilt. No junkyard engine is my opinion, to many variables there. If u have access to a great engine rebuilder then I would go that route. If not then search out a quality factory rebuild from ford or another well known builder that carries an warranty. Good luck sorry to hear about the issue. On a side note I have never heard of the 6.8 having this issue before. I have always heard good things about the 5.4 and 6.8. Ford did a great job with those engines.
kw/00,
I hadn't heard about this oil problem till it happened to me. But Google says I'm not the first one. It is rare though, and I've driven my trucks for 20 years in the past. But, this time around, I probably won't live that long to get my money back. A man only gets so many trucks in his life. Thanks for the encouragement to keep going.
jpares89 wrote:
I've been a mechanic all my life. Take a good long look at the whole truck. Is the tranny, body, and drive line sound? If yes replace the engine. The budget friendly way is to pull a engine out of a bone yard. I have done that at least 30 times by now including my own vehicles and had great results. The more expensive way is a reman engine. Let you and your wallet be the judge. Also factor in how much longer you planned on keeping the truck.
jpares89,
The transmission may have the same 115k on it unless an earlier owner swapped it out. It seems solid, had very little pan debris when serviced.
Most of the older 2-valve (my series) reign only up to 2004 and have a lot of miles on them now, all with marginal sparkplug threads. I wish I could use the updated 3-valve longblock with my 2V computer and accessories bolted on, but that type successful interchange remains to be seen. I assume intake ports won't match, maybe injectors, throttle body, harness will. A mass-air computer may adjust to the different map. A lower mileage 3V shortblock (identical?) would probably work but that wouldn't be worth the trouble to use with my worn, already sparkplug helicoiled, 2V heads.
Kevin O. wrote:
If it's still in good shape and you would plan on keeping it for awhile i would just replace the engine. Like others have said, it's still cheaper than buying another truck. Since you have to pull the motor anyway I would even look into swapping the V10 for a 7.3L Powerstroke. Then you can drive it forever!!!!!! :)
Kevin O.,
I already have (recently) a 7.3L F-250 crewcab, but I do prefer the gas engines in winter. The whole idea of keeping the 4x4 Ex was for severe winter snow driving when the ground-hugging Prius drags its little bottom.
If I swapped any engine series, maybe the more plentiful 5.4L V8 would be an economical option. I don't intend to tow with it unless the F-250 is down, and I could temporarily live with less power. Still, the harness, computer and all would need to be swapped, a lot of work for a lesser truck. I wish a Ford Racing EcoBoost 3.5L crate motor would bolt right in. If there was such a thing available. They can't make enough the way it is.
whjco wrote:
jus2shy wrote:
Have you looked into a jasper engine? We use them at our shop for our field vehicles. We seem to get a great price. They are re-manufactured units, but it seems like they do a fantastic job as we're getting quite a few miles out of the units we've purchased.
k
I bought a Jasper engine for my '65 Chevy in 1974. I still have the car and there's about 100k on the engine and it's going strong. It lost the fiber cam gear about 8 years ago which was a simple repair.
whjco,
Another endorsement for the Jasper engine. Thanks.
Whatever I might use for the replacement, I plan to look for a brand with premium
pre-inserted sparkplug threads. One insert brand,
Lock-n-Stitch, is apparently approved by Ford for out-of-warranty Triton heads. The idea is that the hardened aluminum threads both survive and yet deliver the same sparkplug heat-range performance, meaning the engine still runs right AND meets EPA. Steel inserts don't.
Thanks all,
Wes
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