F 250 vs Ram 2500

ShinerBock wrote:

4x4ord wrote:


I’m saying you’re wrong. Your fleet data and Fuelly are not in anyway intended to be scientific tests designed to measure fuel economy in one vehicle vs another under identical conditions. You could perform a more scientific test than that taking two different trucks on a five mile test drive. There is no way that the 10 speed can account for the dramatic improvement in fuel economy from the previous Powerstroke to the present. I’ve had 5, 6.7 Powerstrokes prior to my 2021s and they all got fairly similar mileage. 18 mpg US was about the best I remember seeing out any of them, and that would be at about 62 mph. My 2021 is able to do 21.5 at 70 mph and I’ve seen 23 mpg on one occasion. The day I picked up my 2021 we ran one of the 2017s and the ‘21 one behind the other for 120 km. It was kind of a windy day and neither truck was performing its best. Both mpg meters are calibrated. The 2017 read 14.5 litres per 100 km (16.2 mpg) and the 2021 read 11.8 litres per 100 km (19.9 mpg US) I have since travelled that exact same stretch of highway and measured 10.2 litres per 100 km with the 2021. These mpg figures are for comparison purposes only as none of them take into account fuel lost to cleaning the DPF.

Actually, there is a scientific way of telling whether a 10-speed will gain fuel economy and it has already been done by Ford on many of their vehicles for EPA mileage data on window stickers. Not one of their vehicles that they replaced a 6-speed with a 10-speed gained more than 10% better fuel economy. Neither has any other manufacturer that has done the same even with their diesel engines such as GM. Most if not all were just a 6-7% increase so there is no way in the world you will get me to believe that somehow all PSD's gained over 20% better fuel economy while all other vehicles around the world did not even get close to that when they switched to a 10-speed.

Either you have a super special unicorn that should not be an example of what all other PSD trucks should get or your computer is not telling you actual numbers on either truck. Seeing that computers just use algorithms and do not actually measure the amount of fuel being used, I will go with the latter. I never never never never never never trust anyone's mileage readings off their computer because from my experience from recording over 11 vehicles including Ford's, BMW, Jeeps, Ram's and so on, not one was 100% accurate all the time and most were anywhere from 5-20% off. Many vehicles were close about 30% of the time and then way off the rest of the time. The more times I stoped/start the engine, generally, the more it was off.

Here are a few examples I did a few years ago of my Ram and BMW showing how "correct" my computer was to actual.

Ram 2500



BMW 328d


So experience tells me not to trust the computer and I take the numbers that people quote from their computer with a grain of salt.

I have tracked the mileage and fuel put into my truck and calibrated the mpg meter. At my last fill up my trip meter read 14.2 litres per 100 km. Calculating the actual came out to 14.15 L/100 km.

I agree the 10 speed on its own can not account for the increased mileage that the 2021 gets over the ‘17. I think the mileage increase is about 18%. I have no way of knowing where the gain is coming from but maybe 6% is gained directly from the new transmission. I’m possibly gaining an additional 6% due to being able to run 3.31 gears vs 3.55s in the past. The improvements to the engine might account for another 6%.
According to Fuelly the 2017 got 12.9 mpg and the 2020/21 gets about 12.5 mpg. Whether or not my 18% is accurate or not I’ll never know but I’m 100% certain that I’m getting significantly better fuel economy. I’m not saying that the data posted on Fuelly is necessarily wrong but to take that data and claim that the 2021 Powerstroke is less fuel efficient than the 2017 is just not accurate. We have no way of knowing how each of these trucks are being used.

FishOnOne wrote:

rhagfo wrote:

Interesting, GM has used Allison for years, yet it is bad that Ram uses Aisin? as to refined shifting, our Aisin shifts smooth loaded or empty.
Ram went with the Bosch 4.2 for two year and then went back to the Bosch 3, and still make plenty of power.

Chevrolet and GMC used Allison transmissions because GM owned Allison back then and the Chevy/GMC were the first to install a medium duty transmission into their trucks and the shifting quality was second to none, but they did have some problems but nothing significant. Also the Aisin's that were first installed in the Ram cab and chassis trucks where actually failure prone more than people realize and the cost to replace one was really expensive.

I do not believe the Allison 1000 is a true medium duty transmission. That would be big brother Ally 3000.

4x4ord wrote:


I’m saying you’re wrong. Your fleet data and Fuelly are not in anyway intended to be scientific tests designed to measure fuel economy in one vehicle vs another under identical conditions. You could perform a more scientific test than that taking two different trucks on a five mile test drive. There is no way that the 10 speed can account for the dramatic improvement in fuel economy from the previous Powerstroke to the present. I’ve had 5, 6.7 Powerstrokes prior to my 2021s and they all got fairly similar mileage. 18 mpg US was about the best I remember seeing out any of them, and that would be at about 62 mph. My 2021 is able to do 21.5 at 70 mph and I’ve seen 23 mpg on one occasion. The day I picked up my 2021 we ran one of the 2017s and the ‘21 one behind the other for 120 km. It was kind of a windy day and neither truck was performing its best. Both mpg meters are calibrated. The 2017 read 14.5 litres per 100 km (16.2 mpg) and the 2021 read 11.8 litres per 100 km (19.9 mpg US) I have since travelled that exact same stretch of highway and measured 10.2 litres per 100 km with the 2021. These mpg figures are for comparison purposes only as none of them take into account fuel lost to cleaning the DPF.

Actually, there is a scientific way of telling whether a 10-speed will gain fuel economy and it has already been done by Ford on many of their vehicles for EPA mileage data on window stickers. Not one of their vehicles that they replaced a 6-speed with a 10-speed gained more than 10% better fuel economy. Neither has any other manufacturer that has done the same even with their diesel engines such as GM. Most if not all were just a 6-7% increase so there is no way in the world you will get me to believe that somehow all PSD's gained over 20% better fuel economy while all other vehicles around the world did not even get close to that when they switched to a 10-speed.

Either you have a super special unicorn that should not be an example of what all other PSD trucks should get or your computer is not telling you actual numbers on either truck. Seeing that computers just use algorithms and do not actually measure the amount of fuel being used, I will go with the latter. I never never never never never never trust anyone's mileage readings off their computer because from my experience from recording over 11 vehicles including Ford's, BMW, Jeeps, Ram's and so on, not one was 100% accurate all the time and most were anywhere from 5-20% off. Many vehicles were close about 30% of the time and then way off the rest of the time. The more times I stoped/start the engine, generally, the more it was off.

Here are a few examples I did a few years ago of my Ram and BMW showing how "correct" my computer was to actual.

Ram 2500



BMW 328d


So experience tells me not to trust the computer and I take the numbers that people quote from their computer with a grain of salt.

Bionic Man wrote:

Grit dog wrote:

swimmer_spe wrote:

Me Again wrote:

kellem wrote:
OP, if your looking new then Ford currently owns the market with the 6.7 PS or the 7.3 gas.
I actually wanted a Ram but simply couldn't overlook this.

It is called different strokes for different folks. I had three RAM/Cummins trucks(1993, 2001.5 and 2015) and loved each one. Never was stranded on the side of the road, 1994 to 2021.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXutuWDIGU4

If only they made that truck combination. How bad are the Dodge transmissions?

While the diesel “gurus” are arguing the finer points of fuel mileage and who’s trans is real and who’s is fake....

Dodge ( to trigger the “it’s a RAM” folks) HD truck aren’t “bad” per se. But the 68, while as reliable as any (IMO) is just a clunky antiquated unit that shifts like a wet bag of dog c rap. The Aisin is a stout get er done great towing trans ( although the 68 acts better towing than bobtail) that doesn’t have any meaningful aftermarket ability to be built up for the (small %) of mod truck guys. IMO it’s on par with Ford and GMs old 6 speeds, easily.
BUT since you’re a ways out from buying a new truck, the “Dodge” will have a 8speed ZF trans very soon. It’s not highly publicized, actually Ram and ZF are keeping it on the down low, but the deal is done. Then Ram will have a trans that is competitive with the current competition.

Let me guess. A receptionist when you were touring the ZF plant gave you that nugget of info as long as you promised not to tell? Did they also tell you about a new emissions system that was going to increase fuel efficiency and power?.....

;)

Grit dog wrote:

swimmer_spe wrote:

Me Again wrote:

kellem wrote:
OP, if your looking new then Ford currently owns the market with the 6.7 PS or the 7.3 gas.
I actually wanted a Ram but simply couldn't overlook this.

It is called different strokes for different folks. I had three RAM/Cummins trucks(1993, 2001.5 and 2015) and loved each one. Never was stranded on the side of the road, 1994 to 2021.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXutuWDIGU4

If only they made that truck combination. How bad are the Dodge transmissions?

While the diesel “gurus” are arguing the finer points of fuel mileage and who’s trans is real and who’s is fake....

Dodge ( to trigger the “it’s a RAM” folks) HD truck aren’t “bad” per se. But the 68, while as reliable as any (IMO) is just a clunky antiquated unit that shifts like a wet bag of dog c rap. The Aisin is a stout get er done great towing trans ( although the 68 acts better towing than bobtail) that doesn’t have any meaningful aftermarket ability to be built up for the (small %) of mod truck guys. IMO it’s on par with Ford and GMs old 6 speeds, easily.
BUT since you’re a ways out from buying a new truck, the “Dodge” will have a 8speed ZF trans very soon. It’s not highly publicized, actually Ram and ZF are keeping it on the down low, but the deal is done. Then Ram will have a trans that is competitive with the current competition.

Let me guess. A receptionist when you were touring the ZF plant gave you that nugget of info as long as you promised not to tell? Did they also tell you about a new emissions system that was going to increase fuel efficiency and power?.....

^That post almost makes me want to buy a Powerstroke.....












Just kidding!

ShinerBock wrote:

4x4ord wrote:
Shiner you are misusing data to try to proof something to be that isn’t. You just have to trust me when I say the increase in fuel economy from the 17 to 21 Powerstroke is astounding. I feel like I’m standing in front of a hippopotamus and you’re convinced you can get me to believe I’m looking at a giraffe.

So you are telling me I cannot trust Fuelly, not trust the EPA fuel mileage test(which Ford performs) from other 6 to 10 speed vehicles, not trust all our fleet data from our 10-speed half tons and Superduty's, not trust ZF and many other transmission manufacturers, but trust TFL and you when you say you a 10-speed transmission increased your fuel mileage 23%. Sorry, but no. And I don't even think Ford would back you in saying that a 10-speed transmission increases fuel mileage by more 10% let alone 23% like you are claiming. In fact, if I remember correctly from of their slides about the 10 speed, even they said expected fuel mileage increase of 6-7%.

I’m saying you’re wrong. Your fleet data and Fuelly are not in anyway intended to be scientific tests designed to measure fuel economy in one vehicle vs another under identical conditions. You could perform a more scientific test than that taking two different trucks on a five mile test drive. There is no way that the 10 speed can account for the dramatic improvement in fuel economy from the previous Powerstroke to the present. I’ve had 5, 6.7 Powerstrokes prior to my 2021s and they all got fairly similar mileage. 18 mpg US was about the best I remember seeing out any of them, and that would be at about 62 mph. My 2021 is able to do 21.5 at 70 mph and I’ve seen 23 mpg on one occasion. The day I picked up my 2021 we ran one of the 2017s and the ‘21 one behind the other for 120 km. It was kind of a windy day and neither truck was performing its best. Both mpg meters are calibrated. The 2017 read 14.5 litres per 100 km (16.2 mpg) and the 2021 read 11.8 litres per 100 km (19.9 mpg US) I have since travelled that exact same stretch of highway and measured 10.2 litres per 100 km with the 2021. These mpg figures are for comparison purposes only as none of them take into account fuel lost to cleaning the DPF.

rhagfo wrote:

Interesting, GM has used Allison for years, yet it is bad that Ram uses Aisin? as to refined shifting, our Aisin shifts smooth loaded or empty.
Ram went with the Bosch 4.2 for two year and then went back to the Bosch 3, and still make plenty of power.

Chevrolet and GMC used Allison transmissions because GM owned Allison back then and the Chevy/GMC were the first to install a medium duty transmission into their trucks and the shifting quality was second to none, but they did have some problems but nothing significant. Also the Aisin's that were first installed in the Ram cab and chassis trucks where actually failure prone more than people realize and the cost to replace one was really expensive.

4x4ord wrote:
Shiner you are misusing data to try to proof something to be that isn’t. You just have to trust me when I say the increase in fuel economy from the 17 to 21 Powerstroke is astounding. I feel like I’m standing in front of a hippopotamus and you’re convinced you can get me to believe I’m looking at a giraffe.

So you are telling me I cannot trust Fuelly, not trust the EPA fuel mileage test(which Ford performs) from other 6 to 10 speed vehicles, not trust all our fleet data from our 10-speed half tons and Superduty's, not trust ZF and many other transmission manufacturers, but trust TFL and you when you say you a 10-speed transmission increased your fuel mileage 23%. Sorry, but no. And I don't even think Ford would back you in saying that a 10-speed transmission increases fuel mileage by more 10% let alone 23% like you are claiming. In fact, if I remember correctly from of their slides about the 10 speed, even they said expected fuel mileage increase of 6-7%.

Grit dog wrote:

swimmer_spe wrote:

Me Again wrote:

kellem wrote:
OP, if your looking new then Ford currently owns the market with the 6.7 PS or the 7.3 gas.
I actually wanted a Ram but simply couldn't overlook this.

It is called different strokes for different folks. I had three RAM/Cummins trucks(1993, 2001.5 and 2015) and loved each one. Never was stranded on the side of the road, 1994 to 2021.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXutuWDIGU4

If only they made that truck combination. How bad are the Dodge transmissions?

While the diesel “gurus” are arguing the finer points of fuel mileage and who’s trans is real and who’s is fake....

Dodge ( to trigger the “it’s a RAM” folks) HD truck aren’t “bad” per se. But the 68, while as reliable as any (IMO) is just a clunky antiquated unit that shifts like a wet bag of dog c rap. The Aisin is a stout get er done great towing trans ( although the 68 acts better towing than bobtail) that doesn’t have any meaningful aftermarket ability to be built up for the (small %) of mod truck guys. IMO it’s on par with Ford and GMs old 6 speeds, easily.
BUT since you’re a ways out from buying a new truck, the “Dodge” will have a 8speed ZF trans very soon. It’s not highly publicized, actually Ram and ZF are keeping it on the down low, but the deal is done. Then Ram will have a trans that is competitive with the current competition.

You noticed I never once asked about fuel economy? It is a truck. If I wanted fuel economy, I'd buy a Prius.

I do realize that in a year or so, things may change with each of them. I am more concerned with current issues that they may not have fixed yet.