FCA Paid $77 Million in CAFE Penalties in 2016

If you folks wish to factor in *ALL* of the financial components to any automotive tariff/taxation/fees/etc on trade...you should also add in how countries support their economic structure through taxation of individuals/corporations/etc, credits for some of those taxes, interest rate manipulation (banking industry...both internal and external), bailouts, etc, etc, etc

time2roll wrote:
I still say drop everything and set all import taxes at 5%. Including all vehicles, oil, electronics, everything. To me that is free market trade with a small sales tax.

Too much of this tit-for-tat was created long ago under very different conditions. "chicken tax" is just idiotic at this point.

Do you think it's ok for other countries to impose 10% and 25% import taxes on our vehicles and we should only impose a 5% tax on theirs?

If they're willing to set their import taxes at 5% and ours at 5% then that would be fine but I don't think that's going to happen. Tit for tat sounds ok to me if they're not willing to make import taxes equal.

ShinerBock wrote:
Most German and Japanese build here to get around the chicken tax. We have only been talking about pickup trucks, but you forget that federal US regulations define many 4WD SUV's and vans as light trucks which make them apart of the chicken tax. Many of the foreign makes factories here are specifically for their SUV's and vans and may also build a few of their cars as well if demand for their SUV's and vans isn't enough to keep production going.

Also, almost all German and Japanese manufacturers have more factories outside their own country than their own which is mostly due to tariffs, labor costs, and other regulations of each region yet no one talks about the lack of competition or protection in these areas.

Yes, they do it because the tariff gives American manufactured vehicles a price advantage over imports giving the manufacture higher margins. There is a reason the US industry is ditching cars for trucks and SUV's and the Chicken Tax gives them a 25% incentive to do so. Problem is, the rest of the world will move on to electrics and other technologies and North America will be left behind.

That would probably still leave a trade imbalance especially when things have a different values.

Ironically though, even with the chicken tax, the trade deficit is still not in the US's favor with most countries we trade with since we import more into the US than other countries import our products in theirs.

In 2017 we imported $2.895 trillion and only exported $2.329 trillion. That is a $566 billion trade deficit.

I still say drop everything and set all import taxes at 5%. Including all vehicles, oil, electronics, everything. To me that is free market trade with a small sales tax.

Too much of this tit-for-tat was created long ago under very different conditions. "chicken tax" is just idiotic at this point.

wilber1 wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

wilber1 wrote:

So why shouldn't other countries do the same to American manufacturers if they want to sell US built products in their countries?

They do which is why our US companies build factories in these places. You didn't think the US was only country with vehicle tariffs did you? The EU puts a 10% tariff on all of our vehicles while we only impose a 2.5% on their cars. China and many Asian countries has a 25% tariff on all our ICE vehicles yet we only have a 2.5% on their cars.

Yeah, we have a 25% tariff on trucks, but they would never buy them even if they did not have any tariffs in these countries due to their displacement tax and other reasons I stated. So to get around this, our US companies just build factories in these countries if they think their vehicles have a high enough demand.

Although, these new small engines in full size trucks may get around the displacement tax in other countries.

You impose a 25% tariff on the vehicles most important to your market, why shouldn’t they impose a 25% tariff on the vehicles most important to theirs?

The Germans and Japanese build vehicles in the US for the same reason the US builds them in Mexico, much lower labour costs.

I wasn't saying whether it is or isn't right for other countries to impose a tariff. You specifically asked "So why shouldn't other countries do the same to American manufacturers if they want to sell US built products in their countries?" and I answered the question.

Most German and Japanese build here to get around the chicken tax. We have only been talking about pickup trucks, but you forget that federal US regulations define many 4WD SUV's and vans as light trucks which make them apart of the chicken tax. Many of the foreign makes factories here are specifically for their SUV's and vans and may also build a few of their cars as well if demand for their SUV's and vans isn't enough to keep production going.

Also, almost all German and Japanese manufacturers have more factories outside their own country than their own which is mostly due to tariffs, labor costs, and other regulations of each region yet no one talks about the lack of competition or protection in these areas.

I will also point out the 4runner. It has been under the chicken tax for decades since it is still built in Japan, and it is still one of the most popular SUV's out there able to compete with the rest of them. And if you include the manufacturers of SUV's and vans, then list if US competitors that the chicken tax was suppose to "protect" them from grows considerably.

ShinerBock wrote:

wilber1 wrote:

So why shouldn't other countries do the same to American manufacturers if they want to sell US built products in their countries?

They do which is why our US companies build factories in these places. You didn't think the US was only country with vehicle tariffs did you? The EU puts a 10% tariff on all of our vehicles while we only impose a 2.5% on their cars. China and many Asian countries has a 25% tariff on all our ICE vehicles yet we only have a 2.5% on their cars.

Yeah, we have a 25% tariff on trucks, but they would never buy them even if they did not have any tariffs in these countries due to their displacement tax and other reasons I stated. So to get around this, our US companies just build factories in these countries if they think their vehicles have a high enough demand.

Although, these new small engines in full size trucks may get around the displacement tax in other countries.

You impose a 25% tariff on the vehicles most important to your market, why shouldn’t they impose a 25% tariff on the vehicles most important to theirs?

The Germans and Japanese build vehicles in the US for the same reason the US builds them in Mexico, much lower labour costs.

wilber1 wrote:

So why shouldn't other countries do the same to American manufacturers if they want to sell US built products in their countries?

They do which is why our US companies build factories in these places. You didn't think the US was only country with vehicle tariffs did you? The EU puts a 10% tariff on all of our vehicles while we only impose a 2.5% on their cars. China and many Asian countries has a 25% tariff on all our ICE vehicles yet we only have a 2.5% on their cars.

Yeah, we have a 25% tariff on trucks, but they would never buy them even if they did not have any tariffs in these countries due to their displacement tax and other reasons I stated. So to get around this, our US companies just build factories in these countries if they think their vehicles have a high enough demand.

Although, these new small engines in full size trucks may get around the displacement tax in other countries.

ShinerBock wrote:

wilber1 wrote:


Oh come on how does adding 25% to the cost of any possible competitor's imported product not help them? I'm sure Nissan and Toyota enjoy having their US built trucks protected just as much as the others.

Nope, because any foreign competitor can simply build a factory here or any NAFTA country like Mexico if the thought their vehicles was in high enough demand to make a profit. Or they can simply continue to built in the current places that they already are like Thailand and Argentina where it is much cheaper to built vehicles due to less regulations and lower labor costs and just ship them here.

So why shouldn't other countries do the same to American manufacturers if they want to sell US built products in their countries?

We'll See wrote:
This discussion brings up a couple of questions.

Why doesn't Toyota build a HD truck?

Why don't the existing truck mfgs build electric compact or midsize trucks?

Well, st least for Electric they would have to buy the technology from someone who wants to sell it. Then they have to find a battery provider which takes years to ramp up even if they could. Ford wants to double their production of e-Focus to 250 vehicles per month. PER MONTH. Putting that in perspective, Tesla builds over a thousand cars PER DAY. Nissan builds around 240 Leafs per day. Some industry people think it could take a year for Ford to get to 10 cars a day.

The big three are definetly behind the curve on this. They have the advantage though that if they get in financial trouble they can just go back to the tax payer for another bail out. One of the reasons I won’t buy a Bolt. I already support them with my taxes. Decent little car though.