Help with the towing math

My two cents…
If it were me, I'd go ahead and load cargo in the truck even if it put me technically over the exact published ratings. I believe that overall, the heavier the tow vehicle is relative to the trailer, the better.
The truck isn't going to explode because of a few hundred or even a thousand extra pounds are in it. Take a journey over to the Truck Camper section; I think most of us are that much over what the book says!

I really really don't like towing trailers that are a lot heavier than the truck!

2littletime wrote:
Barney, So what you are saying is the carrying capacity of the truck can be increased. 1,000 hitch-15% or 150 lbs

Nope, I did not say that. The weight transferred to the front axle of the truck is still carried by the truck and not removed and must be counted in the carrying capacity of the truck. There is, however, an amount of weight that IS removed from the truck and transferred to the trailer axles and would increase the carrying capacity of the truck by the same amount.

This amount of weight is dependent on several factors but can generally be figured to be about 1/3 or less of the amount placed on the ball by the tongue weight. In the case of the example given, that would be 300lbs to the trailer axles from a tongue weight of 1000lbs added to the ball.
Again, see the first post of the thread I linked to earlier.
Barney

LarryJM wrote:

westend wrote:

BTW, the tow vehicle's braking system is engineered to stop (safely) the weight of the vehicle and it's cargo, not towed weight. That role is taken up by the trailer's braking system.

In theory that might be true, but I think the vehicles braking system and it's overall capability has a HUGE EFFECT on stopping the entire GVW of the towed combo and most likely does the LION'S SHARE of the braking duties, especially in the more aggressive braking scenarios. There is just no way that those electric brakes with that sliding magnet is going to put the same braking force on the trailer less efficient "DRUM" brake shoes as the power assisted hydraulic brakes found in vehicles now with a lot having disk brakes on all four wheels. This disparity is why on vehicles with disk brakes only in front wear out two sets of front pads to one set of rear shoes. While this is a WAG I would not be surprised if one was able to allocate how much braking is actually done between say a 10K trailer towed by a 10K vehicle that the ratio might be in the neighborhood of 25% trailer and 75% tow vehicle. This is where IMO the too much TV for the trailer towed really shines and makes these more capable TVs light years ahead in the safety area over the lighter duty tow vehicles. This doesn't even consider the effects of say that 10K towed trailer "PUSHING" on the TV during a very aggressive braking event because the TV is trying to decelerate at a much higher rate than the towed trailer behind it.

Larry

My comment was in reference to the general aspect of vehicle brake system engineering. The OP was "scared" that the tow vehicle was under-engineered for the duty of towing, regarding brakes.

Also, if you have a 25%-75% sharing on brake function for the combination, I would assume that the trailer's brakes are not set up correctly. I would agree that most trucks have better braking systems than stock TT's and deceleration speeds can be unequal but if you set your brake controller correct, there should be a smooth braking sensation, similar to having nothing on the hitch. That is the goal for most situations, anyway.

Sounds like a good combo to me. Might end up close to rear axle rating or GVWR of the truck. By no means will it struggle from an acceleration and power point of view.

Ok, here's what I found out about my truck and its capability. I stopped at my local Ford Dealership service department today to see what they had to say. They looked up my truck in their system and it came standard with a beefed up radiator, trans cooler and oil cooler which are the same that are on the Max Tow F150's, F250's and F350's. As a side note, these things don't come standard with the F150 ecoboost models with the 3.15 or 3.31 gears. That might be why some thought my truck wouldn't have those things. So I asked why is the GVWR GCVWR and Payload so much more with the F150's that have the Max Tow package? They said they didn't know so I asked them if they would call Ford and ask. They got right on the phone while I was there. I thought that was very nice of them. The answer that was given was because a brake controller and 3.73 gears comes in the Max Tow package so the controller would be operational when you plug in so the trailer brakes would handle some of the burden when stopping and the 3.73 gears would make the truck work easier, especially on big hill climbs, so the engineers could be comfortable with the higher weight limits displayed. They also said that the 3.55 gears are adequate with the added weight but I would lose a little fuel mileage. Finally they said that if I had an after market brake controller (which I do) not to give it a thought. The truck is more than capable of handling the weight I will be towing even if I add 1000-1500 pounds of gear in the trailer. This is great news to me because now I don't have to spend thousands and upgrade my tow vehicle.

Simplified answers to the OP can be easily found online at Fifth Wheel St. Consider reading Before You Buy That RV, Truck or Other Tow Vehicle.

MackinawMan, it's the Husky brand with the chainlink WDH setup and a friction type sway controller.

camp-n-family wrote:

Maximum Loaded Trailer Weight assumes a towing vehicle with any mandatory options, no cargo, tongue load of 10-15% (conventional trailer) or king pin weight of 15-25% (5th-wheel trailer) and driver
only (150 pounds).

Weight of additional options, passengers, cargo and hitch must be deducted from this weight. Also check Required and Recommended Equipment.

Basically Ford HAS deducted the driver weight of 150 lbs from the cargo weight since it has already been deducted from the GCWR..

What you're reading in the above is the TOW RATING, says nothing about payload. It just says that the max tow rating is calculated with a base truck, with no cargo or passengers other than 150lbs for the driver. The tow rating decreases pound for pound with weight added to the truck.

What it does say about payload is;

"Make sure vehicle payload (reduced by option weight) will accommodate trailer tongue load weight and weight of passengers and cargo added to towing vehicle."

That's ALL passengers, driver too.

Read it any way you like to..

You are quibbling about 150 lbs.

IF YOU DON'T BUY TOO HEAVY OF A TRAILER IN THE FIRST PLACE YOU WOULD NOT BE COUNTING THE AMOUNT OF CRACKERS YOU CAN TAKE WITH YOU, PERIOD.

When you buy a trailer which excess capacity OVER your available TV cargo you TEND to find yourself in a situation just like the OP is in now..

Basically empty they ARE extremely NEAR their cargo rating BEFORE EVER putting a piece of clothing in it...

So perhaps you should lighten up a bit, the plain fact is the OP clearly DOES NOT HAVE ANY extra cargo capacity regardless if you want to count the driver weight or not. To me that is way to close for my comfort and the very reason I buy and continue to buy properly equipped F250s..

My current 2013 F250 super cab short bed has a little over 3,400 lbs of AVAILABLE CARGO WEIGHT RATING.

This means I can EASILY tow a 12,000 GVWR trailer with 15% tongue weight (1,800 lbs) and STILL have 1,600 lbs OF AVAILABLE vehicle CARGO left I can easily haul in the back of my truck..

OR I could even go with a 10,000 lb GVWR 5th with a 25% pin weight (2,500 lbs) and STILL have 900 lbs of available vehicle CARGO left

But instead, I have a 26ft TT which has 7,200 GVWR and a 18' open deck flat bed utility trailer with 9,900 GVWR.

I PURPOSELY BUY TRAILERS that have GVWR RATINGS either at or BELOW my vehicles ratings..

It IS GREAT TO KNOW I DO NOT NEED TO WORRY if I am at or above my trucks capacity.

I don't HAVE to count crackers, bread slices or even if I can take a ice cube, no hassles, no countless hrs of math to do.. Simple and quick..

I don't lose sleep and the combo tows extremely well. The extra few bucks it cost and the less comfy ride and the little less mileage it gets IS WELL WORTH IT TO ME... :B

As always.. you mileage may vary... quibble if you like..

westend wrote:

BTW, the tow vehicle's braking system is engineered to stop (safely) the weight of the vehicle and it's cargo, not towed weight. That role is taken up by the trailer's braking system.

In theory that might be true, but I think the vehicles braking system and it's overall capability has a HUGE EFFECT on stopping the entire GVW of the towed combo and most likely does the LION'S SHARE of the braking duties, especially in the more aggressive braking scenarios. There is just no way that those electric brakes with that sliding magnet is going to put the same braking force on the trailer less efficient "DRUM" brake shoes as the power assisted hydraulic brakes found in vehicles now with a lot having disk brakes on all four wheels. This disparity is why on vehicles with disk brakes only in front wear out two sets of front pads to one set of rear shoes. While this is a WAG I would not be surprised if one was able to allocate how much braking is actually done between say a 10K trailer towed by a 10K vehicle that the ratio might be in the neighborhood of 25% trailer and 75% tow vehicle. This is where IMO the too much TV for the trailer towed really shines and makes these more capable TVs light years ahead in the safety area over the lighter duty tow vehicles. This doesn't even consider the effects of say that 10K towed trailer "PUSHING" on the TV during a very aggressive braking event because the TV is trying to decelerate at a much higher rate than the towed trailer behind it.

Larry

RobWNY wrote:
I wasn't aware that the wheels on Heartland trailers were closer to the hitch than on most trailers. That does make sense why the tongue weight advertised would be lower though. Interestingly, earlier today I was reading about manufacturers towing limits. It seems there isn't any real standard that's adhered to. The SAE J2807 truck towing standard is meant to be able to compare apples to apples with different trucks towing and cargo limits but Gm, Ford and Dodge don't adhere to the standard so it's more of a PR thing to "one-up" the competitor. They all say they will be adhering to the standard but as of now they don't. The numbers they list aren't really accurate. They could very well be inflated. So if trailer specs aren't accurate and tow vehicle specs aren't accurate, how does anyone use formulas to know if their tow vehicle is within the limits? Just because a truck has the power to tow something, doesn't mean it's safe to do so. I think there's a whole lot more that has to be known. For instance, you could have heavy duty shocks and springs, plenty of engine, really sturdy frame and brakes and rotors that aren't big enough to handle the weight they have to stop. That would make the tow vehicle unsafe. I can see where there are thousands of people with all kinds of trailers that think their tow vehicle is safe and it really isn't. Scary thought!

I don't think I've ever driven any truck that couldn't meet the J2807 standard, it's pretty mild.
Just because this is a new standard, it doesn't reflect anything on the accuracy of weight ratings. The weight ratings are calculated by the mfg. to insure the safety and reliability of the vehicle. The same intention is used by trailer mfgs.
BTW, the tow vehicle's braking system is engineered to stop (safely) the weight of the vehicle and it's cargo, not towed weight. That role is taken up by the trailer's braking system.