Inverter and battery sizing to power my camper microwave

Its a battery that the cells are likely sourced in China (if not the entire unit). Which means:

- The 3 items of interest (cost, AH and cycles) are lied about.

Many/most 'offbrand' and even 'brandnameish' producers will often inflate the AH and/or the cycles using much less expensive cells to achieve a much less expensive price point for their products. (the same could be said of Solar panels where I've seen 40W panels being advertised as 400W!!)

- Due to the large ramp up in EV's LFP batteries (and factories) is on the rise.

The market is being flooded with products however questionable many of those products actual performance might be.

A quick look at even Amazon the price for 100AH of LFP is all over the map!

Sure while a set of 4 CATL LFP 280AH cells run ~$700 on Amazon, add a BMS and some busbars for less than a Battleborn many want the 'off the shelf' finished product.


- Mark0.

Cheaper, not cheeper.. among others.

otrfun wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:

otrfun wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:
. . . I would argue there is more potential for something to go wring in a battle born with over 100 cells soldered in as aposed to a prismatic type with only 8 battery conections, but it will be easier to detect on the prismatic . . .

I would argue there is less potential.

The 100ah Battleborn (BB) battery cost more for a very good reason---better redundancy. BB uses 100+ cylindrical cells spot-welded in a parallel/series configuration (vs. series connected prismatic cells). Configured this way, a few cells can loose capacity or become unbalanced and have very little effect on the battery's overall output.

99% of the 100ah lifepo4 batteries on Amazon, etc., use prismatic cells. Typically 4 in series. If *any* of these 4 cells loose capacity or become unbalanced it directly and immediately degrades the overall output of the battery---potentially to the point the battery becomes almost unusable, all because of one cell.

BB could have easily chosen to use less expensive prismatic cells, but they didn't in order to provide a more stable, robust battery.

your talking about the noticable effect not the potential, and I did say that I believe. in a battle born if a solder joint comes lose it or a cell goes bad depending where it is you might not realy notice it or you may notice it a fair bit depending on the failur. in a prismatic if one goes bad you know it, which I concider a good thing and ease of changing out a cell in a prismatic system is by far more easy. I would argue also that prismatic may or may not be less expensive. the actual physical cell the celindrical cell is much cheper to produce on automated lines so to buy the cells them self the 120 cells in a 100AH battle born are cheeper than four 100AH prismatic cells untill recently.... the manufactuing process for prismatic has been altered and ramped up which is bring the cost down on prismatic quite significantly. you have less conections inside a prismatic battery so less chance for a factory defect, which also translates for lower labour costs. because you have 12 to 20 conections over 10 posts in a prismatic compared to the 240+ in a celinderical set up so the labour to wire/conect the cells is much less. the new production savings and increase in amounts of prismatic cells is making them more populer in automotive aplication which is bringing the price of automotive battery down. tesla is now doing all there chinese cars with LFP prismatic cells.

Steve

We've been down this road before where I begin to have a difficult time following you.

You're making general statements about various costs, faulty/excessive connections, manufacturing processes, the ease of changing cells, faulty solder connections, popularity, etc. You've made it clear that you feel batteries that use prismatic cells are "better", I get that.

However, my previous post compared the *PARALLEL* and series cell arrangement used in the 100ah BB batteries to the *SERIES* ONLY cell arrangement used in 100ah batteries that use prismatic cells. Unless, you're willing to discuss this in some fashion, then I'm sorry, I have nothing further to add.

not better, Ill try streamline my paragraph. prismatic cells are not "cheeper" or "lower quality" the reason for the higher cost involved in say battle born is the increased labour costs to assemble the batteries and the fact they havent realy keept up to the dropping LFP prices as they nave a nich market and do a good sales job of making people think they are vastly superior to other batteries.

Battle born is a parallel/series battery where my battery is a series arangment, and in my 5th wheel I am building a series/parrallel setup , and yes if one cell goes bad in a prismatic you will notice it more, but at the same time it would take me about 5 min to replace the cell with a new one, I would be a few hours to try fix a battle born and need a lot more specialized tools

in the battle born they use 120 1AH cells to make there 100AH battery so they basicly have 30 parralel lines, so if you lose one series line, you lose 1/30th of the battery capacity so yes in that way you have more built in redundency but I was talking about the chance of there being a problem with the battery not the effect. if you notice you lost a cell are you going to sent it in for repair? well that depends I don't think the adverage person would even notice it and run a defective battery for ever. hopefully they have the BMS set up to let you know if there is an issue as that is capable of knowing right away.

does this make battle born better, maybe if your talking redundency, but I still don't think that redundency is worth the price there asking, the battle born by this time should be about 700 bucks concidering you can get thoes 120 cells for under 200 bucks.

I have been looking at them laitly and trying to decide weather to build a prismatic for the 5th wheel or try build out of cilendrical cells. its a lot cheeper for me to buy the clindrical cells, and I cam print specilized holders with my 3D printer, but I would have to buy something to spot weld them togeather and figure that out.

StirCrazy wrote:

otrfun wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:
. . . I would argue there is more potential for something to go wring in a battle born with over 100 cells soldered in as aposed to a prismatic type with only 8 battery conections, but it will be easier to detect on the prismatic . . .

I would argue there is less potential.

The 100ah Battleborn (BB) battery cost more for a very good reason---better redundancy. BB uses 100+ cylindrical cells spot-welded in a parallel/series configuration (vs. series connected prismatic cells). Configured this way, a few cells can loose capacity or become unbalanced and have very little effect on the battery's overall output.

99% of the 100ah lifepo4 batteries on Amazon, etc., use prismatic cells. Typically 4 in series. If *any* of these 4 cells loose capacity or become unbalanced it directly and immediately degrades the overall output of the battery---potentially to the point the battery becomes almost unusable, all because of one cell.

BB could have easily chosen to use less expensive prismatic cells, but they didn't in order to provide a more stable, robust battery.

your talking about the noticable effect not the potential, and I did say that I believe. in a battle born if a solder joint comes lose it or a cell goes bad depending where it is you might not realy notice it or you may notice it a fair bit depending on the failur. in a prismatic if one goes bad you know it, which I concider a good thing and ease of changing out a cell in a prismatic system is by far more easy. I would argue also that prismatic may or may not be less expensive. the actual physical cell the celindrical cell is much cheper to produce on automated lines so to buy the cells them self the 120 cells in a 100AH battle born are cheeper than four 100AH prismatic cells untill recently.... the manufactuing process for prismatic has been altered and ramped up which is bring the cost down on prismatic quite significantly. you have less conections inside a prismatic battery so less chance for a factory defect, which also translates for lower labour costs. because you have 12 to 20 conections over 10 posts in a prismatic compared to the 240+ in a celinderical set up so the labour to wire/conect the cells is much less. the new production savings and increase in amounts of prismatic cells is making them more populer in automotive aplication which is bringing the price of automotive battery down. tesla is now doing all there chinese cars with LFP prismatic cells.

Steve

We've been down this road before where I begin to have a difficult time following you.

You're making general statements about various costs, faulty/excessive connections, manufacturing processes, the ease of changing cells, faulty solder connections, popularity, etc. You've made it clear that you feel batteries that use prismatic cells are "better", I get that.

However, my previous post compared the *PARALLEL* and series cell arrangement used in the 100ah BB batteries to the *SERIES* ONLY cell arrangement used in 100ah batteries that use prismatic cells. Unless, you're willing to discuss this in some fashion, then I'm sorry, I have nothing further to add.

3 tons wrote:
I don’t have BB myself, but the bargain-bin batteries dare not match their 10 year warranty (who can tell what grade or composition their cells are??), or tech service, and cylindrical cells stay cooler (due to assembly air gaps), thus no outward swelling of battery case…Quite naturally this all comes at a premium, but it’s nice to have the option - Just saying

3 tons

There are people that tear these bargain bin batteries down,identifying the cell manufacturer/wires etc and bms..On YouTube,so you pretty much know what your buying and what's inside..

Example-Redodo(Zooms) Ganfeng cells/LiTime (Ampere time). Eve cells

Well, I’d note that there’s lots of connections in my smart-phone (2 billion transistors) and PSW inverter-charger, but when done properly, 2 inverters, 3 phones and 2 i-pads later, I’ve yet to have a single problem…Subject to change?? (I donno…)..Honestly, over the past many years I’ve yet to lose a moments sleep over these perceived boogieman - that some folks do, I can accept that…

3 tons

otrfun wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:
. . . I would argue there is more potential for something to go wring in a battle born with over 100 cells soldered in as aposed to a prismatic type with only 8 battery conections, but it will be easier to detect on the prismatic . . .

I would argue there is less potential.

The 100ah Battleborn (BB) battery cost more for a very good reason---better redundancy. BB uses 100+ cylindrical cells spot-welded in a parallel/series configuration (vs. series connected prismatic cells). Configured this way, a few cells can loose capacity or become unbalanced and have very little effect on the battery's overall output.

99% of the 100ah lifepo4 batteries on Amazon, etc., use prismatic cells. Typically 4 in series. If *any* of these 4 cells loose capacity or become unbalanced it directly and immediately degrades the overall output of the battery---potentially to the point the battery becomes almost unusable, all because of one cell.

BB could have easily chosen to use less expensive prismatic cells, but they didn't in order to provide a more stable, robust battery.

your talking about the noticable effect not the potential, and I did say that I believe. in a battle born if a solder joint comes lose it or a cell goes bad depending where it is you might not realy notice it or you may notice it a fair bit depending on the failur. in a prismatic if one goes bad you know it, which I concider a good thing and ease of changing out a cell in a prismatic system is by far more easy. I would argue also that prismatic may or may not be less expensive. the actual physical cell the celindrical cell is much cheper to produce on automated lines so to buy the cells them self the 120 cells in a 100AH battle born are cheeper than four 100AH prismatic cells untill recently.... the manufactuing process for prismatic has been altered and ramped up which is bring the cost down on prismatic quite significantly. you have less conections inside a prismatic battery so less chance for a factory defect, which also translates for lower labour costs. because you have 12 to 20 conections over 10 posts in a prismatic compared to the 240+ in a celinderical set up so the labour to wire/conect the cells is much less. the new production savings and increase in amounts of prismatic cells is making them more populer in automotive aplication which is bringing the price of automotive battery down. tesla is now doing all there chinese cars with LFP prismatic cells.

Steve

2oldman wrote:

Grit dog wrote:
No, they’re still overpriced thanks to a following due to being the first legit LFP guys.

The makers of cheaper, inferior products rely on this.

Value is both objective and subjective and of course different to different folks. And to say there is not some very subjective opinion of the “value” in this case would be wholly incorrect.

Grit dog wrote:
No, they’re still overpriced thanks to a following due to being the first legit LFP guys.

The makers of cheaper, inferior products rely on this.

I don’t have BB myself, but the bargain-bin batteries dare not match their 10 year warranty (who can tell what grade or composition their cells are??), or tech service, and cylindrical cells stay cooler (due to assembly air gaps), thus no outward swelling of battery case…Quite naturally this all comes at a premium, but it’s nice to have the option - Just saying

3 tons