Manual Transmission? Yea or Nay?

ricatic wrote:

I would like to clarify something though...I would not object to any of the manufacturer's offering a manual transmission in their HD pickup's...For those who still want one...so be it...but with the automatic being the defacto standard for transmissions, the manual needs to bear the cost of being an option...I do wonder how many die hard manual guy's would pay the freight to get that manual???

There is no reason for a manual to cost more. Automatics have always cost more, they are more complex and have way more moving parts. All those computers and sensors cost big bucks. Since the manual transmissions are used in the rest of the world the argument about R&D cost doesn't stand up either.

ricatic wrote:
The tired old argument about manuals getting better mileage needs to die...The modern computer controlled automatic does a better job of interfacing with the computer controlled engine. This maximizes the fuel economy by processing millions of bits of data and instantly adjusts fuel flow to meet the needs. Humans have no chance at matching that raw power for decision making...or the finesse that the computer controls have over throttle control...

Have not seen that play out in the real world. Yes on the computer controlled test dynamometers they do. But that is a very controlled setup, one that I'll bet influences the programming of the vehicle. But the best computer is reactive. Vehicle slows, computer increases fuel. But momentum is lost and truck down shifts. I see hill ahead, I increase fuel before vehicle slows, vehicle maintains speed, no downshift required, fuel saved. I also don't really like a computer having more control than I do. I don’t know why Toyota had acceleration problems, but I don't buy the floor mats. Oh and try to get all that HP to the ground. Ever heard of Torque Management? That’s your computers talking and cutting back on power, most times to keep that expensive automatic transmission from a early grave.

rhagfo wrote:

Fast Mopar wrote:
The real reason people quit buying sticks (and quit learning to drive them) is because you cannot drink Starbucks coffee and text while driving a stick. Today for many people, driving the car is secondary to doing all the other things people do behind the wheel.

I prefer to be a driver who is engaged in the driving experience and my daily driver is a 5 speed stick (yes, even in heavy Houston stop and go traffic every day). I wish more tow vehicles had the option of auto or stick.

This statement is so true now days, cell phones (texting and calling), coffee, food, navigation systems. When you just need to step on the throttle, or the brake, people forget the little things Like looking!

That and I have noticed that many drives nowadays, don't seem to react as quickly to a bad situations. My mother taught me to drive 47 yeas ago, her hot rod brothers taught her! Two things she taught me ALWAYS be looking at least six or more cars down the road, not car lengths, be looking at least at the sixth car in front of you, you should never be surprised at what is coming down the road. The other thing is don't be afraid, to lift off the throttle.

Wasn't going to comment anymore, as personal opinion rights seems to
be lost

Yes, was taught to drive by Uncle Bill and told to drive ahead as far
as can see...am normally on my brakes or let off the throttle way before
the two or three vehicles ahead of me

Trick it to look 'through' the vehicles windshields and/or steer off
line from them and look down the road between them....but that means
paying attention, serious attention to the matter at hand.

distracted driver is the norm...DVD's for every seatbelt..scans the
drivers....whatever happened to talking to your family on car trips?

GPS rules and funny/sad read that some guy drove off the road because
the GPS did NOT indicate the road curved...idiot...my sisters husband
bangs on their Super Lux sedan's dash when their integrated
GPS/entertainment system messes up...no longer tell him to ignore it
and just drive the way he wants to...he yells back that a $120K vehicle
should know better...

Auto wipers for when it is too inconvenient to manually turn on the
wipers

Auto parallel parking

Folks constantly asking and getting weird advice on whether to use
tow/haul or not when

TOWING OR HAULING

. Bad enough
that those asking can't seem to understand what 'tow/haul' means and
what it is for...it is designed for those who do NOT know HOW2 manage
their transmission (no matter manual or automatic, but a 'tow/haul'
button only on automatics) for the conditions at hand or 'coming up'
ahead

Or that they will come here asking is it okay for their automatic
transmission to constantly shift gears up and down. Then try telling
them to turn on their 'tow/haul' button.

Of them asking if it is okay to tow heavy in OD, or in the hills.Tell
them I drop down to 3rd on my GMT400 and then they complain their MPG
will go out the window...

Generalizations all, but too much of it true...

If I ever buy another TV, it will most likely be an automatic because
the model level I want will only come in automatic and the sales person
will look at me as if from another planet when I ask if a manual is
available (all of the 'car' dealership sales folks did that, except
for the place ordered from...their main sales are semi's and only sell
'cars' to fill out their offerings to those buyers 'wives')

My 13 year old Suburban's 7.4L is getting tired and notice the difference.
It's 4L80E is also noticeably tired during shifts...a bit too soon as
wanted till fully retired for sure. Was going to build another K5
but after riding some ATV's, no sense in a K5 anymore. Just buy a big
toy hauler for as many ATV's can stuff back there. Happy that it lasted
this long...beating the snot out of it (+162K miles of EXTREMELY HARD
driving/Towing)

And the problem of finding a crate HO 7.4L for a GMT400. Plenty of
off road and carberated, but NONE for a smog compliant 1996. Gosh
darn...going to have to build one myself, but think the parts will
be tough to find...must be crazy, as the two crate engine suppliers
talked to said no one has EVER asked for that

Then a manual NV4500 or whatever is available then (5sp, 6sp, etc)
and a 4:1 doubler NP203/205 transfer case. Never liked the current
XrCase and always felt 'weak'

Need to sort out the input/output shafts (mainly number of splines
and adaptors) and cutting up the Sub's floor for the shifters

Again, personal choice stuff, as most would not even consider this
conversion of a GMT400 7.4L/4L80E to a manual tranny

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

When I bought my most recent manual transmission vehicle, it was a 2004 Subaru Forester (since traded in). I did my homework, and the manual transmission Forester had HIGHER tow rating, HIGHER economy, and LOWER purchase price. However, finding one turned into a hunt. I ended up driving 3 hours to a dealership to buy the ONLY 5-speed Forester on the lot. And of course, it was the stripper 2.5X model so I had to skip all the cool luxuries like climate control. However that vehicle ran twice as fast out of the hole as the same model with an automatic (test drove both), and it shifted like butter with zero clutch effort. My wife loved it also.

You might have did your homework but I would give you a poor grade.

EPA Forrester mileage. At least 1 out of your three homework assigments were 100% wrong; I did not grade the other 2 but only 66% correct is an F grade in any class. :p

The auto beats out the manual in one model and a dead heat in the other. Apples to apples. But then again if you always drove on the highway you would want that blazing 1 MPG gain with a row boat. But then you would need your car towed the rest of the time. :B

The 2014 Forester with CVT beats out the manual 6 spd by 3 mpg combined.

Fast Mopar wrote:
The real reason people quit buying sticks (and quit learning to drive them) is because you cannot drink Starbucks coffee and text while driving a stick. Today for many people, driving the car is secondary to doing all the other things people do behind the wheel.

I prefer to be a driver who is engaged in the driving experience and my daily driver is a 5 speed stick (yes, even in heavy Houston stop and go traffic every day). I wish more tow vehicles had the option of auto or stick.

This statement is so true now days, cell phones (texting and calling), coffee, food, navigation systems. When you just need to step on the throttle, or the brake, people forget the little things Like looking!

That and I have noticed that many drives nowadays, don't seem to react as quickly to a bad situations. My mother taught me to drive 47 yeas ago, her hot rod brothers taught her! Two things she taught me ALWAYS be looking at least six or more cars down the road, not car lengths, be looking at least at the sixth car in front of you, you should never be surprised at what is coming down the road. The other thing is don't be afraid, to lift off the throttle.

When I bought my most recent manual transmission vehicle, it was a 2004 Subaru Forester (since traded in). I did my homework, and the manual transmission Forester had HIGHER tow rating, HIGHER economy, and LOWER purchase price. However, finding one turned into a hunt. I ended up driving 3 hours to a dealership to buy the ONLY 5-speed Forester on the lot. And of course, it was the stripper 2.5X model so I had to skip all the cool luxuries like climate control. However that vehicle ran twice as fast out of the hole as the same model with an automatic (test drove both), and it shifted like butter with zero clutch effort. My wife loved it also.

You might have did your homework but I would give you a poor grade.

EPA Forrester mileage. At least 1 out of your three homework assigments were 100% wrong; I did not grade the other 2 but only 66% correct is an F grade in any class. :p

The auto beats out the manual in one model and a dead heat in the other. Apples to apples. But then again if you always drove on the highway you would want that blazing 1 MPG gain with a row boat. But then you would need your car towed the rest of the time. :B

ricatic wrote:
Why is it when the facts are put in play and the numbers tell the story, the manual shift fanatic's have to hoist their "manly" flag and denigrate the vast majority of the truck ownership?

Sorry, didn't mean to be insulting.

I don't really think the manly flag comment was necessary. Automatics are great. I have two right now.

Caddywhompus wrote:

ricatic wrote:

Fast Mopar wrote:
The real reason people quit buying sticks (and quit learning to drive them) is because you cannot drink Starbucks coffee and text while driving a stick. Today for many people, driving the car is secondary to doing all the other things people do behind the wheel.

I prefer to be a driver who is engaged in the driving experience and my daily driver is a 5 speed stick (yes, even in heavy Houston stop and go traffic every day). I wish more tow vehicles had the option of auto or stick.

...so because after 45 years of driving stick shift vehicles, I decide I will let the superior performance of today's automatic transmission do the shifting I am no longer an "engaged" driver...does this mean, that in your opinion, 98.5% of the HD pickup purchasers are not engaged in the driving process but instead are just drinking "Starbucks"?

Why is it when the facts are put in play and the numbers tell the story, the manual shift fanatic's have to hoist their "manly" flag and denigrate the vast majority of the truck ownership? The real folly in their argument is in another number altogether...the vast majority of us here grew up on manual transmissions...we have lived the manly life of playing with the stick...and we have seen the light...we do not buy stripped down trucks, we let the transmission shift itself and we enjoy the ride...

Regards

The real decline of manual transmission had nothing to do with consumer demand, not initially at least.

It came when car makers wanted to start limiting the variations available to lower costs. They push people into automatics by putting the manual option (if one exists) only on the stripper models, and usually with the smallest engine. Want any creature comfort whatsoever in your ride? No problem, but it comes packaged with the automatic transmission.

I could have had a 6-speed manual in my Fusion, but only if I bought the base model car. Since I wanted the SEL model with the killer stereo and moonroof, I had to get an automatic. Given the choice, it is the ONLY thing I would change about this car.

When I bought my most recent manual transmission vehicle, it was a 2004 Subaru Forester (since traded in). I did my homework, and the manual transmission Forester had HIGHER tow rating, HIGHER economy, and LOWER purchase price. However, finding one turned into a hunt. I ended up driving 3 hours to a dealership to buy the ONLY 5-speed Forester on the lot. And of course, it was the stripper 2.5X model so I had to skip all the cool luxuries like climate control. However that vehicle ran twice as fast out of the hole as the same model with an automatic (test drove both), and it shifted like butter with zero clutch effort. My wife loved it also.

No, you aren't going to convince me or anyone else that driving an automatic is better. Frankly, it sounds like you are too busy trying to convince yourself.

Caddy...

You are a funny guy...I do not need to convince anyone that the automatic rules...98.5% of us already know that fact...and you have been just as busy as me trying to make your point...are you still trying to convince yourself that the manual is best...

Yes, the manufacturers decided too make auto's standard in the deluxe models...because people were buying them so equipped. If demand was really there, and buyers stayed away from the automatics, the manual would have remained in the product mix.

If you read my previous post, you would realize I support your opinion that a manual transmission should be available to those that want one...and are willing to bear the cost of an optional manual transmission...it has not been the "standard" for decades...Serious question...How much would you and your manual transmission brethren be willing to pay for that opportunity?

Regards

ricatic wrote:

Fast Mopar wrote:
The real reason people quit buying sticks (and quit learning to drive them) is because you cannot drink Starbucks coffee and text while driving a stick. Today for many people, driving the car is secondary to doing all the other things people do behind the wheel.

I prefer to be a driver who is engaged in the driving experience and my daily driver is a 5 speed stick (yes, even in heavy Houston stop and go traffic every day). I wish more tow vehicles had the option of auto or stick.

...so because after 45 years of driving stick shift vehicles, I decide I will let the superior performance of today's automatic transmission do the shifting I am no longer an "engaged" driver...does this mean, that in your opinion, 98.5% of the HD pickup purchasers are not engaged in the driving process but instead are just drinking "Starbucks"?

Why is it when the facts are put in play and the numbers tell the story, the manual shift fanatic's have to hoist their "manly" flag and denigrate the vast majority of the truck ownership? The real folly in their argument is in another number altogether...the vast majority of us here grew up on manual transmissions...we have lived the manly life of playing with the stick...and we have seen the light...we do not buy stripped down trucks, we let the transmission shift itself and we enjoy the ride...

Regards

The real decline of manual transmission had nothing to do with consumer demand, not initially at least.

It came when car makers wanted to start limiting the variations available to lower costs. They push people into automatics by putting the manual option (if one exists) only on the stripper models, and usually with the smallest engine. Want any creature comfort whatsoever in your ride? No problem, but it comes packaged with the automatic transmission.

I could have had a 6-speed manual in my Fusion, but only if I bought the base model car. Since I wanted the SEL model with the killer stereo and moonroof, I had to get an automatic. Given the choice, it is the ONLY thing I would change about this car.

When I bought my most recent manual transmission vehicle, it was a 2004 Subaru Forester (since traded in). I did my homework, and the manual transmission Forester had HIGHER tow rating, HIGHER economy, and LOWER purchase price. However, finding one turned into a hunt. I ended up driving 3 hours to a dealership to buy the ONLY 5-speed Forester on the lot. And of course, it was the stripper 2.5X model so I had to skip all the cool luxuries like climate control. However that vehicle ran twice as fast out of the hole as the same model with an automatic (test drove both), and it shifted like butter with zero clutch effort. My wife loved it also.

No, you aren't going to convince me or anyone else that driving an automatic is better. Frankly, it sounds like you are too busy trying to convince yourself.

I gave up pedal cars a long time ago. :)

Fast Mopar wrote:
The real reason people quit buying sticks (and quit learning to drive them) is because you cannot drink Starbucks coffee and text while driving a stick. Today for many people, driving the car is secondary to doing all the other things people do behind the wheel.

I prefer to be a driver who is engaged in the driving experience and my daily driver is a 5 speed stick (yes, even in heavy Houston stop and go traffic every day). I wish more tow vehicles had the option of auto or stick.

...so because after 45 years of driving stick shift vehicles, I decide I will let the superior performance of today's automatic transmission do the shifting I am no longer an "engaged" driver...does this mean, that in your opinion, 98.5% of the HD pickup purchasers are not engaged in the driving process but instead are just drinking "Starbucks"?

Why is it when the facts are put in play and the numbers tell the story, the manual shift fanatic's have to hoist their "manly" flag and denigrate the vast majority of the truck ownership? The real folly in their argument is in another number altogether...the vast majority of us here grew up on manual transmissions...we have lived the manly life of playing with the stick...and we have seen the light...we do not buy stripped down trucks, we let the transmission shift itself and we enjoy the ride...

I would like to clarify something though...I would not object to any of the manufacturer's offering a manual transmission in their HD pickup's...For those who still want one...so be it...but with the automatic being the defacto standard for transmissions, the manual needs to bear the cost of being an option...I do wonder how many die hard manual guy's would pay the freight to get that manual???

Regards