Poorly written RV MANUALS

Like they say.....there's an a$$ at every party.

Wow! I normally do not engage with internet know it alls, but in this case I will make an exception. I have been a member of this site since 2004. I rarely post here for one simply reason:This site has several people who apparently take great pride in belittling other peoples opinions and always having the last word. I can tell that folks temper their responses to "go with the crowd" because they don't want to upset the know it alls. I'm not one of those people. Last time I looked, I was still in America, which is great since I have the right to tell it like it is. The only reason I am on here more now is the new RV. I like seeing the mods folks have done and I am about half way through the mods thread.

I was not whining. I simply started a thread to see if other folks shared my belief. Seems most do. If you don't agree with my threads subject, don't read it. Go play with the other know it alls.

One more thing: I did the ISO 9002 certification for the electronics firm I worked for. Took two years to finish. A first grader could read this documentation and build the boards we made. It HAD to be written to be easily understood as new employees were trained using it.

Last thing: I contacted Venture via email asking if a schematic of the RV was available. I got a one word response: No... Great customer service... My dealer was a bit more helpful in that she answered the question I had about the satellite cable routing.

Coolerman wrote:
Glad to read other folks have the same issue with poor documentation. These are MAJOR expenditures, not $19.95, can't be fixed economically, throw away items! The car manual has 300 pages detailing exactly how to use it, and maintain it. My RV manual has 29 pages, 13 of which are nothing but warnings! A good RV manual should contain more information related to the how the SYSTEMS function AND how to maintain them.

When in a campground possibly hundreds of miles from the nearest RV dealer, and something goes wrong, it would be nice to open a manual and at least have a clue where to look for how to shut something off...

I think most RV owners are more technical minded than non RV owners. We can figure this stuff out, but even for the most technical minded, a good manual is a help. I don't think I'm asking too much here...

Someone mentioned you don't get plans/drawings/schematics with your home? I did, as I helped design it. It's a log home so it's a bit custom. I have full, as built, drawings of the layout, the electrical, and the plumbing. Yes, I had to ask for them. I did the alarm/video/satellite/network system myself, so I have that also. Is that normal? Of course not! My cars/trucks? I have the factory service manuals. They not only have the entire electrical system schematics, but contain all the other information needed to trouble shoot it.

The RV makers have this "as constructed" information available. If they are ISO
9001/2 certified it's already in a manual that just needs to be rewritten for user level consumption. I would gladly pay for such a detailed manual!

Obviously you haven't bought a new vehicle in a while?

My 2013 F250 came with an owners manual of over 300 pages, more than 200 pages are dedicated to details on how to use MS Sync.

Has very little detail on what the lights are for on the instrument cluster :S

Doesn't give any real complete detail on resetting silly things like the mileage minder or important things like how to reteach the TPMS when changing tire positions..

I had to search the Internet forums to get that information :M

Then I WROTE my own notes inside the front cover of the owners manual..

As far as your home, well the reason you got info was the fact it was a custom built home FOR YOU. You will find that it is not normal practice in the home building industry.

Honestly, it IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE TO FIGURE OUT YOUR RV CONNECTIONS..

The last time I checked EVERY NEW RV HAS LABELS PLACED AT EVERY CONNECTION WHICH STATES IT'S FUNCTION IN LIFE!

Even my old trailers from back in the 1980s had water connections labeled, sewer, electric all clearly labeled..

Your appliance manuals cover the operation of the appliances..

As far as technical stuff goes, for the most part it is assumed that you WILL be returning the RV back to the dealer for repairs, even out of warranty..

Not to mention YOU most likely would not be willing to pay for reprinting every stitch of paper for your rig (drawings and details).. That cost would have to be rolled into your purchase price..

On top of that many details are often treated as PROPRIETARY OR INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY OF THE MANUFACTURER due to COMPETITION..

The company I work for making high tech devices DOES NOT AND WILL NEVER GIVE OUT TECHNICAL DOCUMENTATION TO OUR CUSTOMERS, PERIOD..

That info is treated as a trade secret..

We have a team of service people to maintain our customers equipment.. The customers agreed to this when they bought the equipment..

Heck, I work under a non disclosure agreement, if I disclosed info I am subject to losing my job and I could end up getting sued by them.. I can't even get a job with a competitor or even start my own competing business for 1 yr after leaving my company.

If you really feel you "need" the technical info on your RV then call the manufacturer instead of jumping on a public forum and whining about it.. I will warn you, most will tell you to not available..

If you want tech info for you car, you will have to buy the shop manual, they don't give them out for free either..

On edit..

Just because a company may be "ISO 9001/2" doesn't mean the documents are in a form that YOU can "read"..

ISO 9001/2 simply means that for every step in the process there is WRITTEN "HOW TO" DOCUMENTS for how parts are designed, assembled and what happens to parts that are not acceptable..

I can assure you that you would never be able to make heads or toes out of my companies ISO documents..

ISO 9001/2 also means the documentation is CONTROLLED and can not be changed by any one individual..

ISO 9001/2 also means that the company has some type of control/tracking methods in place for bad or non conforming parts..

It doesn't mean that YOU the customer deserve or are guaranteed any part of the documentation.

Glad to read other folks have the same issue with poor documentation. These are MAJOR expenditures, not $19.95, can't be fixed economically, throw away items! The car manual has 300 pages detailing exactly how to use it, and maintain it. My RV manual has 29 pages, 13 of which are nothing but warnings! A good RV manual should contain more information related to the how the SYSTEMS function AND how to maintain them.

When in a campground possibly hundreds of miles from the nearest RV dealer, and something goes wrong, it would be nice to open a manual and at least have a clue where to look for how to shut something off...

I think most RV owners are more technical minded than non RV owners. We can figure this stuff out, but even for the most technical minded, a good manual is a help. I don't think I'm asking too much here...

Someone mentioned you don't get plans/drawings/schematics with your home? I did, as I helped design it. It's a log home so it's a bit custom. I have full, as built, drawings of the layout, the electrical, and the plumbing. Yes, I had to ask for them. I did the alarm/video/satellite/network system myself, so I have that also. Is that normal? Of course not! My cars/trucks? I have the factory service manuals. They not only have the entire electrical system schematics, but contain all the other information needed to trouble shoot it.

The RV makers have this "as constructed" information available. If they are ISO
9001/2 certified it's already in a manual that just needs to be rewritten for user level consumption. I would gladly pay for such a detailed manual!

You got a manual? Luuuucccckkkkkyyyyyy!

I am kidding of course but it I may as well have thrown it out for all the good it did me.

I get frustrated because many of the TT systems are glossed over in the owner's manual. That's mainly because many of the components are built by other companies and installed in the TT, so each component has their own manual. But the problem is that there is a lot of information "missing" between what is in the TT manual vs. the component manuals. Sometimes each refers to the other, and that creates gaps.

Auto manuals tend to be much more detailed, but a lot of that info is safety oriented because of our over-litigious society.

I guess I will jump onto the soapbox----- when we bought our 2014 Keystone Alpine I read all the product booklets and owner manual. We took our first trip several weeks later.
There were no pictures or diagrams for which connector for the cable tv just a "satellite ready" sticker. No idea which position for water heater bypass just a sticker next to valve "water heater bypass off". The second day the kitchen sink was full and wouldn't drain. 82 gallon grey tank couldn't be full? When you open the hatch door you see the cable tv connectors (2), grey and black water drains, city water hookup and selector right there in front of you. What I didn't see was a drain valve on the side panel right inside the hatch opening! I had been only draining the shower tank. Why couldn't the manual mentioned to look for 2 drain valves?? Seems stupid not to put all cable drain valves together?? No matter what Keystone has thrown at us we still love our fifth wheel. We have had our moments though.

Coolerman wrote:
I have spent the past couple of weeks reading through all the manuals that came with our 2016 Venture Sonic. I have come to the following conclusions: Most individual device manufacturer manuals are great. Full of detail, plenty of drawings.
The manuals for the camper as a whole suck. This was true with the StarCraft Gemini I had also, but at least it did include a schematic of the wiring! The Venture manual is the worst I have ever seen. NOWHERE is there a schematic of the DC or AC electrical, or the cable/satellite wiring, or the Zamp Solar wiring or the plumbing, gas or water. The manual is mostly WARNINGS...

Now I do industrial process control electrical by trade, so I can figure this out, but really? No schematic? How is the dealer supposed to work on it if he doesn't know how things are wired and ran? Maybe they get the Super Secret, not be be trusted to a simple RV owner, manual? :R

Umm.. You don't get electrical schematics when you buy a sticks and bricks home, right? Heck you don't even get any drawings of the building..

Buy a car, the manufacturer does not hand you a schematic, right?

Buy a TV, they don't give you a schematic, right?

How about your computer, cell phone, Ipad..

Really in the scheme of things, unless it is a motor home typical RV wiring is bone stock basic stuff.. No need for a schematic.. If you need a schematic to troubleshoot a RV then you are way over your head..

Your appliance manuals are really more valuable than a schematic of the RV it's self.

seaeagle2 wrote:
Based on my experiences shopping and looking behind cabinet voids (we wanted an oven and most 18' TT don't have one so I was looking to see about adding one) wiring and plumbing diagrams would need footnotes like "if Bubba did it on Friday" or "if Bob did it right before lunch" or "if they they didn't run out of what's shown and just used what they had on hand"

Now here is a guy that understands the RV assembly process. If you want an eye-opener, tour a plant. While wiring, you might hear something like this: " hey Jakie, catch".

pulsar wrote:
As Y-Guy points out, Winnebago has their manuals online - wiring, plumbing, sealants and more, including owner's.

A word of caution, sometimes they post a manual for a new model before it has been completely updated from the previous year. Don't ask me how I know. The manuals are in pdf format and can be down loaded.

BTW, the PDF version of the owner's manual is much easier to search than is the paper version.

Tom

However, information for their towable division isn't available online. Printed manual doesn't have model specific info for hot water tank bypass or water pump location and winterizing process. Information for major systems should be model specific and at least available online as PDF download or Word document. I relayed my thoughts to Winnebago Towables after buying my Minnie.

But, they are very helpful if you call them.