The confounding 3/4 ton truck...

troubledwaters wrote:
CWSWine - still waiting for you to show me one lawsuit where exceeding the GVWR entered into the equation for liability. Been about 6 months now and I'm still waiting. Until then it's just a lotta hyperbole - coulda caused this, coulda resulted in that.

Most are or will be civil suits. As such, most of the time it will not be news worthy.

Generally speaking, as long as one is legal, I'm not going to worry too much.

Actual weight laws go back farther than horseless carriages! IE into the late 1700's here in North America/USA.

Been pulled over above my paid for license, got a 10 day go up the amount! nothing on driving record, nor would there have been even if I was over the FBL's. Overweight is not a moving violation. What hurt me that day, was the pea gravel falling out of the barn doors of flatbed. That was a $180, and a MOVING violation, so that followed my driving record! Oh, I was some 150% of the manufactures GVW rating that day!

Marty

This is the biggest RV.net issue that's a complete non-issue once you shut off your device and head out in the real world.

valhalla360 wrote:


You are quoting a different type of "overweight" laws. There are no specific safety laws. An LEO could sight you for what he considers an unsafe load. This is reported to happen in BC Canada. We do not hear much in similars report in the US except in Southern California coming out of Glamis sand dunes. Not sure what the citations are based on there.

The laws referred to in these quotes generally have little or nothing to do with is the truck safe. These are weight laws that relate to if your truck will do excessive damage to the pavement. If your RV weighs enough to run afoul of these laws, you are so grossly overweight its silly. Generally, the big commercial trucks are fully capable of handling weights well in excess of the legal limits.

The discussions on this forum are generally about if your non-commercial rig is capable of handling the weight safely. You are unlikely to get a ticket unless you are grossly overweight and there is an accident. Even then, for the simple fact that most RV's disintegrate in a serious accident, it's hard to prove what your weight was.

That doesn't mean it's a good idea to exceed the manufacturers weight rating. If you kill someone because you excess weight didn't allow you to stop in time...you are still at fault even if the cops don't write you a ticket. The manufacturer gave you the approved weights. Unless you have the engineering background to fully understand how they set the limits, you will be hard pressed to justify exceeding them.

Safety is the responsibility of the operator and NTSB makes recommendations to assist operators.

NTSB Home
https://www.ntsb.gov/
NTSB - An Independent Federal Agency Charged with determining the probable cause of transportation accidents and promoting transportation safety, and assisting victims of transportation accidents and their families.

I safely operated a 2001.5 RAM well over it's manufacturer low 8800 lb GVWR for years. That truck with the camper option was configured similar to a 3500 SRW which was not offered that year, and was licensed to 12K GVW with my state.

For many years the difference between a 250/2500 and 350/3500 was very minor. Now RAM and Ford have actually engineered the two differently. RAM with a completely different rear suspension, options for the heavier duty transmission and higher output engine reserved for the 3500, and FORD with actual differ running gear components.

The 250/2500 towing issues continue to come up because dealers push 250/2500's with a higher flooring order bases. Walk any dealer lot and see for yourself that the majority of the SRW trucks are 250/2500's.

I have said it in the pass and will say it again, if buying a new TV for a 5th wheel, the starting point should be a 350/3500 SRW, or you will end up like I did. I bought a 2500 when I was towing a 26' 5th wheel, and within a few years I had a 29' much heavier trailer, and then began snowbirding with it. Which meant that is was load to its max.

That is another point. ALWAYS plan your weight on the trailer's maximum weight, not some reduced amount between dry weight and full GWVR of the trailer. Pin weight on most 5th wheels is effected quite a bit by holding tank levels and fresh water on board. Many trailers have the fresh water tank in the rear, moving the water forward to the waste tanks can effect the pin weight by hundreds of pounds. Running with a empty rear fresh water tank vs and full one will create more pin weight.

Another observation is that for the last ten years I have seen the same large trailers arrive each year at our snowbird park behind the same 250/2500 TVs. They did not fall apart of the road or get sideline by a LEO weight cop.

Example of a newer setup, a Landmark 365 with a 2500 Chevy TV, why??? Did the salesman say the 2500 can tow anything, did the owner already have the TV, did he just not know about weights. This has only marginally improved in recent years, however on the Heartland forum their are more and more people upgrading their TV shortly after purchasing a larger trailer.

I have in past years see lots of trailers arrive with damage from a china bomb tire failure. This is improving with more manufactures supplying LRG all steel ply OEM tires and people upgrading from LRE ST tires to LRG all steel ply tires, making trailers safer to tow. Friend blow a china bomb on I-10 between Palm Springs and Phoenix, he said the rig went from the right lane to the left land and almost onto the median before he regained control of the rig.

For all the 5th wheels on the highway, and we see a lot of them in the Phoenix area, they have a pretty good safety record regardless of the TV up front.

GordonThree wrote:
What's the point of this thread, just to stir the pot with the weight police? It's fine camping weather for a good chunk of the country right now, so y'all can't blame cabin fever.

I thought I was pretty clear in my OP - no intent to stir the pot (and as for it being camping weather - I'm staring at 6" snow outside my window in SE WI). I was curious if people could point me to reliable information backing up the claim that one can ignore GVWR and focus solely on axle ratings. It's a claim I see all the time, but the justification (as seen in this thread) is always anecdotal. The only true source information seems to be to stay within ALL ratings, and I'm genuinely curious if there is an organization/publication out there that will claim that it is ok to exceed those ratings.

I simply wanted to see if people could give reliable sources to support their claims (as opposed to personal anecdotal experience). It appears that the answer to that is no - which is what I was curious about. I did not want to have the argument for the 87,000th time on this forum, I wanted source information. Unfortunately, it's an internet thread, so people will engage the argument no matter what!

Nonetheless, I think I've gotten the answer I was looking for. Cheers!

In Alberta it is very seldom I see a f250. They are nearly all f350 SRWs on the road. However, it is not uncommon to see GMC 2500's.

Mickeyfan0805 wrote:
I was curious if people could point me to reliable information backing up the claim that one can ignore GVWR and focus solely on axle ratings. It's a claim I see all the time, but the justification (as seen in this thread) is always anecdotal. The only true source information seems to be to stay within ALL ratings, and I'm genuinely curious if there is an organization/publication out there that will claim that it is ok to exceed those ratings.

Then you failed to read the quotes from Wadcutters posts that I provided.

I too have had conversations about weights and what I can safely tow and what I can't. I eventually came to this conclusion and you should as well. So lets just put this to rest once and for all. Unless you have this setup, you are towing unsafe and should stay in Hotels when traveling.

OP,
You need to bark up a different tree. Just because one is under ALL of the weight ratings mentioned, does not mean you a safe and sane!
I was pulling my 8500 lb equipment trailer with my 12k empty, 18000 give per navistar, 26k gvw plate per state of Washington. I was UNSAFE! Why? I had no hitch weight for the trailer, and it was swaying back and forth at speeds above 45 mph! That is also illegal per my states laws.
Yeah I was under weights, but unsafe! Weights are not end all be all of safety towing etc. How you load, many other factors are to blame for accidents!
I've seen a tandem rear truck towing a tandem dually trailer with the trailer swaying!!!
Marty

blt2ski wrote:
OP,
You need to bark up a different tree. Just because one is under ALL of the weight ratings mentioned, does not mean you a safe and sane!
I was pulling my 8500 lb equipment trailer with my 12k empty, 18000 give per navistar, 26k gvw plate per state of Washington. I was UNSAFE! Why? I had no hitch weight for the trailer, and it was swaying back and forth at speeds above 45 mph! That is also illegal per my states laws.
Yeah I was under weights, but unsafe! Weights are not end all be all of safety towing etc. How you load, many other factors are to blame for accidents!
I've seen a tandem rear truck towing a tandem dually trailer with the trailer swaying!!!
Marty

All due respect...Nowhere did I state or imply that weights were the be-all end-all of anything, nor did I make a particular argument on weights at all - I asked for information. I am well within weights, I have my tongue at 13-14%, my WD is set up properly, and I have no issues whatsoever. I drove over a nail and ended up blowing a tire in the mountains of PA and a passing car had to point it out to me because I didn't even feel it. This is not about me - nor an argument I am proposing.

Honestly, I'm not sure why I seem to have aggravated some people with what I thought was a genuine question on ONE of the aspects of safe towing, but I have. So, I will move on. Enjoy your day.

Mickeyfan0805 wrote:
What I haven't seen, however, is reliably sourced information that is something other than one person or another's opinion on the matter.

That's because no such thing exists.

You ask the manufacturer, and they're going to point to their published documentation. "Don't exceed the GVWR, GAWRs, or the GCVWR, period." Any consequences from exceeding those limits will not be defined in any way shape or form because that both leaves it open for interpretation to the manufacturers' benefit, and prevents someone from using the information against them.

You ask two people in DOT licensing or enforcement, and you will get three different answers about what is "legal" and what is not. That is if you get an answer at all. The only way to know if you're illegal is to get caught on the road and ticketed, and even then it is not definitive because the next officer may not issue a ticket for the same "violation."

All that's left are people's opinions, so that is what you get.

More than anything it is about COMFORT. When you are comfortable driving something, you are as safe as you can be on the road even if it exceeds one of the manufacturer's ratings by a few pounds.