What was Airstream thinking?

Bobbo wrote:
I am reviving this old thread with some news that will make Gdetrailer happy.

You did not "need" to "make me happy", period.

What you did to correct a POTENTIALLY confusing situation for yourself AND potential future repair person or owners is what you did.

I merely pointed out a risk of a confusing situation that mixes 120V and low voltage 12V wiring and colors..

RVs are a hybrid when it comes to wiring and following good practices with how 120V and 12V wiring is handled is always in everyone's best interest.

rbpru wrote:
This seems like a lot of to-do over a simple situation. If you need a 12 volt power outlet you buy wire and install it.

If you do not know how, hire it done.

Uhhh, that is exactly what was done.

This seems like a lot of to-do over a simple situation. If you need a 12 volt power outlet you buy wire and install it.

If you do not know how, hire it done.

Honestly, I've found that my trailer has no where near the amount of 12v outlets I'd like to see. I've added two of them up by the bed to run C-Pap machines.

I am reviving this old thread with some news that will make Gdetrailer happy. I have totally removed that 3 outlet 12v receptacle (including the green wire). It is no longer needed. I have added a pair of 12v outlets in other places, using 12v wires that Airstream had already run. I added a 12v outlet/5v USB outlet to the plywood forming the bed frame. Airstream had left a pair of 12v wires just hanging loose by the bed, so I used them. I also added a 12v outlet under the dinette table, tying into the hot and ground wires that power the sub-woofer. Those two outlets are sufficient for my needs without the 3 outlet port I had hidden in my closet. I did use that outlet, though, when it was the only 12v outlet in the trailer.

Yes, but going from a 12v battery to 120v from the inverter has some power losses. Going from 120v from the inverter back to 12v for the device has some power losses. In total, when using an inverter to charge what you can plug straight in to a 12v outlet costs you about an extra 10% to 20% of the power. When we are boondocking, I don't want to throw away that much power.

On edit: I went to the WFCO website (the Airstream's inverter is a WFCO) and even WFCO claims ">80% efficiency." If something can be powered directly from the 12v battery, it is MUCH more efficient to do so.

No need for 12v connection when the Flying Clouds come standard with an inverter built in.....at least mine did. Push the button on the wall and you have power (from the batteries) to the outlets with the blue label on them.

Walaby wrote:
Only time I saw a reference to you using a green wire was after it was pointed out to you. Sure, technically, it may be fine, but wouldn't it make sense to do it in full compliance with the standards?

Any new owner, if he had to trace that line, would find it spliced into a green wire, and then grounded on the 120V side and wonder WTF... And what else is not correct.

Mike

I also didn't say I used a RED wire for the hot. When the wire color became an issue, it entered the conversation.

The new owner is welcome to think that.

Only time I saw a reference to you using a green wire was after it was pointed out to you. Sure, technically, it may be fine, but wouldn't it make sense to do it in full compliance with the standards?

Any new owner, if he had to trace that line, would find it spliced into a green wire, and then grounded on the 120V side and wonder WTF... And what else is not correct.

Mike

Gdetrailer wrote:
Green on 12V is NOT generally accepted as a NEGATIVE wire, period.

True, it is not generally accepted as a NEGATIVE wire. However, it is universally accepted as a GROUND wire.

Gdetrailer wrote:
Bad form, followed by more bad form = epic fail.

Please describe the possible "epic fail." That is what my final question was. Scenarios please.

Gdetrailer wrote:
RV 12V wiring uses WHITE for the negative, no other colors are used for that purpose.

All other colors including black are 12V POSITIVE..

Not true, the wires connected to my batteries are RED and BLACK. However, GREEN is universally acknowledged to be GROUND.

Gdetrailer wrote:
What I would have done instead of all the haphazard hacking would be to run a new run using typical RV 12V wiring colors (white is neg and black or other colors are positive) from the 12V outlet to the CONVERTER fuse panel OR directly to the battery. I would have used 14 ga wire for a short run and possibly 12 ga wire for a longer run just to keep the voltage drop to a minimum.

At the converter I would have connected the negative directly to the negative terminal on the 12V FUSE PANEL. IF the fuse block does not have a negative terminal I would have traced the 12V negative out the BACK of the panel and then SPLICED there.

I would NEVER, EVER consider using the 120V side of the panel for this type of modifications even though the ground terminal in the 120V side is at the same potential it is not a good idea..

To put this another way, the 120V ground is for SAFETY, there is a BONDING wire that goes to the frame. This wire is typically 10 ga or 8 ga and is there only to ensure all metal of the trailer will be at 120V ground potential.

It is bad form due to the fact that someone else who is not familiar with YOUR modification may mistake that fake green wire for the wrong use.

I am not interested in what YOU would have done. I am interested in possible scenarios where it can cause an actual problem. Someone who is completely ignorant of what I have done will recognize my green 12g wire as a GROUND wire and will treat it as such, which is exactly what I have done. I have acknowledged, several times, that it is bad form. What I have asked for is a scenario where it is an actual problem. So far, none has been suggested. Lecturing will do no good. Scenarios will. And, just what "wrong use" will someone use the green wire for, if not for a GROUND, which is what it is?

Gdetrailer wrote:
While YOU don't see the error of your ways and feel it is "safe" you are voiding any and all NEC rules on keeping separation between 120V and low voltage systems just by having that fake green wire running into the 120V box..

It actually isn't a "fake green wire," it is an actual, real green wire. :B And my "voiding" NEC rules is bad form. Again, I admit that.