Ford's answers to the NHTSA 6.7 Investigation

[ricatic]

There was a request for a link to Ford's answer's to the NHTSA investigation posted on a previous thread, since closed. Here is the link:

Ford's NHTSA Answers to the 6.7 investigation

This PDF is over 20 pages long. There are some interesting statements contained in the documents. My favorite is the one where Ford says they buy the pump from Bosch as a "black box" and do no testing of the component. It is closely followed by the tantamount admission that the pump will not provide a long service life when exposed to the poor lubricity fuel found in the US. You will have to do the math using the sales versus failure tables for the US and Canadian trucks. Eye opening difference to say the least...

Regards

[BenK]

Bean counter....as long as they make their honuses....


Simulation begets this type of down the road issue...

These types of designers have no to little clue....

[NinerBikes]

NewsW wrote:
An interim design mod will be to integrate a fairly high volume filter (not the piddly little one now) in the HPFP housing at the HP exit line, using the pressure differential to trigger a shut down and confine damage to pump.

That plus a return line filter.

Then metal particles are confined.

Bosch has to know all of this, their upper management or Board of Directors just don't give a sh*t. 4 years with this pump,on VW's and Audis, and they still have not addressed the engineering problems and material problems it presents. Their idea of making 3 changes to make the pump more "robust" on their idea of "substandard" fuel has failed. 2011's and 2012 VW's still grenade HPFP's.

I believe in the USA, you need to design product that is "fit for market". I don't see Bosch meeting that requirement, when they've known since 2002 what low lubricity fuel does to their pumps and they know the ASTM standards here for D975 and testing.

The flaw in their current design is using fuel for purposes other than fuel, for lubrication.

[NewsW]

An interim design mod will be to integrate a fairly high volume filter (not the piddly little one now) in the HPFP housing at the HP exit line, using the pressure differential to trigger a shut down and confine damage to pump.

That plus a return line filter.

Then metal particles are confined.

[ricatic]

NewsW wrote:
rick -- no info on that particular one, but know the first batch of failures were in VINs that were close together.

Notice they did not replace the high pressure lines... why not?

They were replaced

I sure would like to know what months those 2011's were built. Maybe Wiebull will see this and send me an email.

Regards

[NewsW]

An interesting trend line:


http://blog.polk.com/blog/blog-posts-by-mark-pauze/hybrids-are-on-a-growth-track-again



Diesels are losing market share since 2008 but had a bump in 2011.

[NewsW]

The mod that need to happen is a supplemental fuel filter plumbed in between the common rail(s) and the HPFP.

A fairly complicated job, as FEA need to be done to ensure that there are no vibration harmonics etc. that would overstress / crack the assembly / lines.

Physical fit / form factor is also a problem --- depending on the size of the filter.

Another question --- if the filter begins to plug (from debris via failing HPFP), what do we do to ensure that the system is shut down (e.g. have to measure pressure differential before and after filter) and then pre-emptively warn / shut down engine at a certain point.

Major, major engineering fix, and costs will probably wipe out CP4.x vs. CP3.x savings.

[NewsW]

rick -- no info on that particular one, but know the first batch of failures were in VINs that were close together.

Notice they did not replace the high pressure lines... why not?

[ricatic]

All injectors replaced
Both fuel rails replaced
DCFM replaced
HPFP replaced
Fuel pressure sensors replaced

Ben is correct. The amount of carnage inside the cam cavity is disturbing. There is not one part that does not show damage.

News...Wiebulls early failures were built in what month?

Regards

[NewsW]

This is an example of a 30,000psi industrial filter:

http://www.normanfilters.com/30Khighpressureinlinefilters.html

Very expensive, to buy, install, and operate.

[BenK]

NewsW wrote:

stsmark wrote:
It actually would take 2 filters, one return low pressure from the cam cavity and one on the discharge high pressure.

There is an existing metal filter at the high pressure exit on the pump.

I believe but cannot confirm that there are individual metal filters on individual injectors as well.

Wonder if they are good enough in particulate size and PSI.

As they load up, wonder if there is enough surface area to continue to
pass without pressure drop and at those PSI's/BAR's...it would become
a balloon quickly if plugged.

$$$$ would factor in the kind/quality/etc of any filter in this type
of system.

Again, impossible to filter debris inside the cam cavity. Married with
very poor lube flow, as it is recycled with little 'fresh' fluid.
Unless the input port and exhaust port are on opposing sides of the cam
cavity

Even then, the basic problem is still there.

Wonder if they had the piston captured like a ICE's crank/rod/pin/piston
would have helped or solved???....but then $$$ becomes an issue...

[NewsW]

stsmark wrote:
It actually would take 2 filters, one return low pressure from the cam cavity and one on the discharge high pressure.

There is an existing metal filter at the high pressure exit on the pump.

I believe but cannot confirm that there are individual metal filters on individual injectors as well.

[stsmark]

It actually would take 2 filters, one return low pressure from the cam cavity and one on the discharge high pressure.

[NewsW]

stsmark wrote:
News,
Ford's guidance to techs is if the engine is even started post WIF or improper fueling event the entire fuel system is replaced except the LP lines and tank but those must be cleaned.

That is very helpful.. thanks.

Then the return line filter is not going to do any good.

[stsmark]

News,
Ford's guidance to techs is if the engine is even started post WIF or improper fueling event the entire fuel system is replaced except the LP lines and tank but those must be cleaned.

[NewsW]

NinerBikes wrote:

NewsW wrote:
The purpose of a return line filter is not to "save" the system, but merely to limit damage (debris in tank and damage to fuel tank / pump / etc.).

If the damage is not excessive (nothing in injectors, etc.) then the repair job will be just flushing the lines and replacement of pump --- and not flushing tank and entire fuel system.

My understanding is injectors are not replaced as part of the repair as of now.

Injectors are replaced on all VW's and Audi's, pretty sure Bosch replaces them on all failures with HPFP, to eliminate contamination issues or a needle valve sticking open caught up with debris, which on a Common rail, would burn a hole through the piston and have a runaway motor.

What is the cost of the repair with the VWs?


@rick

Did they replace all your injectors when the HPFP went?

That begs the question... were the fuel lines (pump to injectors) replaced?

Surely it cannot be perfectly flushed.

I know fuel tank and low pressure lines are not replaced... just flushed.