Ford's answers to the NHTSA 6.7 Investigation

[ricatic]

There was a request for a link to Ford's answer's to the NHTSA investigation posted on a previous thread, since closed. Here is the link:

Ford's NHTSA Answers to the 6.7 investigation

This PDF is over 20 pages long. There are some interesting statements contained in the documents. My favorite is the one where Ford says they buy the pump from Bosch as a "black box" and do no testing of the component. It is closely followed by the tantamount admission that the pump will not provide a long service life when exposed to the poor lubricity fuel found in the US. You will have to do the math using the sales versus failure tables for the US and Canadian trucks. Eye opening difference to say the least...

Regards

[Bionic_Man]

NinerBikes wrote:

#40Fan wrote:
If I was BG, I would walk away from this.

Who is "BG" that you reference?

BG Products

[NewsW]

Ford do not specifically approve their own Motorcraft Cetane Boost for the 6.7 in the online documentation at Fordparts.com

Don't know if the Ford 6.7 manuals says otherwise, but as far as I am concerned, there is no Ford approved fuel additive for the 6.7

[NewsW]

AFAIK, GM do not currently recommend the use of any additives with their Duramax.

Ford do market Ford / Motorcraft additives, but not specifically for the 6.7 diesel.

Until Ford clarifies what Motorcraft additives are proper and appropriate and how to use it, the best deal is to use none.


All evidence on this thread points to the problem not being simple -- not something that can be easily fixed with an off-the-shelf solution.

The CP4 Redesign include changing the bore and stroke of the pump.

[NinerBikes]

#40Fan wrote:
If I was BG, I would walk away from this.

Who is "BG" that you reference?

[_40Fan]

If I was BG, I would walk away from this.

[NewsW]

Snake Oil Warning.

There are now hucksters coming out of the woodwork with assorted "fixes" for this problem.

At the present time, I know of no validated and proven fix for the CP 4 problems.

The only known "fix" is the redesigned pump --- and I will wait until the end of the year before I conclude if that pump fixes the issues.

Furthermore, it is my longstanding opinion that no additives of any kind except those that are ENDORSED IN WRITING by the OEM (Ford, GM, VW, etc.) and SOLD by them under their own Brand, should be used.

Use of 3rd party "cures" or "fixes", especially additives will almost certainly be legitimate grounds for denial of warranty.

Ditto for use of approved additives improperly (e.g. overdosing).


Beware of anyone coming around claiming that their 3rd party additive or their gadget solves the CP4's problems.

If that is the claim --- get it in writing from the manufacturer of the additive AND get an OK in writing from Ford or GM or VW to use it.

Or you have no one to blame but yourself when the CP4 fails on you.

And no one to blame when they refuse to warrant it.

The last thing we need at this stage is to add in more unknowns.

[NewsW]

Need someone out there with a disassembled HPFP that is willing to do experiments.

I need a very simple test done --- and a video (as high res as possible) taken with photos. Take a drop (eye dropper sized) of fuel.

Put the drop (small at first) on the part that has the Diamond Like Carbon (DLC) coating on it.

If you have the new redesigned HPFP, put the drop on the mating roller surface as well. Try different size drops.

I want to see how the drop behaves --- surface tension.

Does the coating "repel" the diesel fuel?

Or does it "film" nicely.


----------------

Once this experiment is done, I would like to repeat the experiment with some common contaminants.

e.g. 5% water emulsion

Common diesel additives

Common unauthorized additives

Biodiesel B20, B100


Each time a new test is tried, the old part must be scrupulously cleaned with fresh diesel.

[NewsW]

BenK wrote:

Apple Computer is a prime example. The board fired Jobs for a MBA, Sculley, who
ran that company via the bottom line and almost went broke till the board got
Jobs back, who ran the company via it's 'product', not the bottom line

To from almost broke to one of the most valuable corporations on the planet
in just a few years after Jobs came back (Job is brilliant, but he is
NOT a nice guy...I've negotiated against him to have him call my CEO
demanding I get fired)

Then there is the story of how a startup company tried to do an iPod about 4 years before Apple, and lost their shirts...

Or the story about how that was the only pony left in the Apple orchard when Jobs came back in...

[BenK]

If that is the range of their margin, then it won't take much to tip it over
into the red. Bet the percentage of warranty claims would be in the 0.0X% range
to tip it over, or is that 5.8% for the whole corporation, or just 'trucks & SUV's' ?

Niner....been there done that but from the program manager side of it...management
telling me to squeeze the team to get the 'results' they wanted...

Loved to learn that some OEMs force their exec's to drive the competition vehicles
as their company vehicle...But these types do NOT drive like us, nor do they
go much off the 'city' pavement

Goes back to management being too far away from their own products and just
managing their bottom line.

Apple Computer is a prime example. The board fired Jobs for a MBA, Sculley, who
ran that company via the bottom line and almost went broke till the board got
Jobs back, who ran the company via it's 'product', not the bottom line

To from almost broke to one of the most valuable corporations on the planet
in just a few years after Jobs came back (Job is brilliant, but he is
NOT a nice guy...I've negotiated against him to have him call my CEO
demanding I get fired)

[NewsW]

BenK wrote:

Back on the bean counter mentality...penny pinching will continue as
long as they make their quarterly bottom line (bonuses and options)

Only when a regulatory agency and/or public out cry forces their hand.
Then they will continue to penny pinch for a 'just good enough' solution...

Sometimes, loss of face is enough to get action done.

This is despite the intense pressure that Ford staff is under to raise their operating margins.

Operating Margin is barely 5.8% in the last quarter.

[NewsW]

Fordlover wrote:
Anyone consider what happens if nothing changes? The failure rate is so small now, but is it likely to spike as more miles get piled on, say 150K, or is it likely to still remain such a tiny percentage?

I guess that begs the question, what happens then, even on a GM? When you experience a failure at 105K miles, not likely that even GM will be willing to replace it on their dime. I wonder if insurance would pick up the cost of the repair? Perhaps carrying full coverage insurance would be wise over the entire ownership of the vehicle?

Unknowns:

Is there a long term issue that will show up at a later stage... e.g. over 150,000 miles?

Will the new pump design be durable over the long haul e.g. over 150,000 miles.

In any case, can we be sure the pump will last the B50 life of the engines (250,000 miles)?

[Fordlover]

Anyone consider what happens if nothing changes? The failure rate is so small now, but is it likely to spike as more miles get piled on, say 150K, or is it likely to still remain such a tiny percentage?

I guess that begs the question, what happens then, even on a GM? When you experience a failure at 105K miles, not likely that even GM will be willing to replace it on their dime. I wonder if insurance would pick up the cost of the repair? Perhaps carrying full coverage insurance would be wise over the entire ownership of the vehicle?

[NinerBikes]

I've been the Cost Analyst before... and could no longer do it. Always pressed for "just enough" then once asked an engineer if he would be pilot or fly in something that was "just enough", let alone be a passenger... guess keeping his job was more important than truthfully answering my questions.

Perspective changes everything... I drive my Common Rail through a lot of desert in the summer. A HPFP design that fails puts my life in jeopardy. Motor doesn't run, neither does the A/C.

Bosch needs to put some big wigs out there to drive 200,000 miles in my shoes, with a failure, instead of their quarterly performance incentives being in place, which only motivates short term gains, not long term.

In my opinion, when it comes to Common Rail... Bosch Systems, really is BS.

[NewsW]

rick

The photos of the new part is all the evidence you need... to nudge them to do the right thing.

[ricatic]

I love it when the "smart guy's" talk. Lot's of good information has been disseminated in the last few days.

Regards