Definition of "Primitive" vs "Tent Only"

[wxtoad]

I recently got into quite a discussion with US Army Corps of Engineers (USACE) personnel at Canyon Lake, TX, over what the word "primitive" means in describing a campground. I've always felt that "primitive" merely meant there were no hookups and few, if any, amenities such as water or toilets. Over the many years we have been camping, we have taken our Class C motorhome to many "primitive" campgrounds with no problems.

However, the Canyon Lake USACE folks are upset that RV's are showing up at North Park and Canyon Park. The USACE websites for both state that they are "primitive" campgrounds. Nowhere does it say they are "Tent only". But the USACE insists that "primitive" means "tent only" and say I am totally wrong to think otherwise.

I'd be interested to hear what others think the word "primitive" means in describing a campground.

WxToad

[2012Coleman]

I went on a 5 day fishing trip in Northern Michigan one time. We were flown in - landed on the water. Unloaded our stuff. Plane took off. We found a spot and cleared the brush, set up tents, built a fire pit and went fishing. We ate fish and drank boiled lake water. Had a SAT radio for emergencies. Packed out our garbage on the return.

I recently went to a Georgia state park and biked to their primitive camping area. There was a 3 sided building with a picnic table, 2 water spickets, an outhouse and a dumpster.

You can guess what my opinion of primitive camping is - although there is more extreme versions such as the TV series called Alone.

[2gypsies1]

Thank you 'wxtoad' for getting an official clarification and a fix to this problem.

[tpi]

wxtoad wrote:
The Fort Worth office was very helpful and it appears the Canyon Lake "Admin Support Assistant" may be eating his words. Here is what Fort Worth had to say:

"Thank you for your inquiry concerning the definition of primitive camping.

In truth, there is not a single officially and universally recognized definition of what constitutes a "primitive" camping area or campsite, at least not within our agency. In the US Army Corps of Engineers program, the word almost invariably does mean that typical campsite utility services are not provided at individual sites. Beyond that, the word is used by the agency, and is understood by much of the public, to have a wide variety of meanings. What is considered a primitive campsite to an RV camper might be considered well-developed to a tent camper, or even to someone who sleeps in his pickup camper. In the many lakes within our Fort Worth District, for example, we have some RV sites without utilities which are referred to as primitive, we have some delineated but unimproved vehicle sites with developed tent pads which are referred to as primitive, and we have walk-in areas for tent camping referred to as primitive at which visitors are expected to park the vehicles some distance from the actual sites and "pack it in."

Because Canyon Park was constructed many years ago with very few level or adequate vehicular parking spots close to the picnic tables and cookers, it is impractical and even dangerous for RVs and camp trailers to attempt to utilize many of the sites in that park. For this and other reasons, overnight use of Canyon Park is limited to tent camping only.

You are correct that clarification of allowable uses at campsites in these parks is needed for prospective visitors to more accurately research public recreational opportunities. Our Canyon Lake staff will be adding this clarification to the lake's public website in the near future."

WxToad

Fantastic follow up by you! Good to see reasonable heads prevail. And FWIW an administrative support assistant named Jim would be a good go-to guy to handle all of the changes with follow up to be sure he did a proper job.

[PUCampin]

Out here "primitive" refers entirely to the level of amenities provided. Primitive can mean a clear spot to park off a dirt road to a campground with marked sites and pit toilets but no water. If water is available it is usually referred to as "Improved"

Road conditions and campsite type are a completely separate concern. If a campground is only for tents then it is labeled as tent only or not suitable for RVs. Usually for good reason, the sites are usually horribly off level and have a level tent pad somewhere separate. Otherwise the sites are listed as "standard" and sometimes have a driveway length listed. It is up to the RV owner to determine the suitability.

I have done plenty of primitive camping, and have seen many smaller class B and C in primitive camps. Sometimes I wish I had one of these small Cs, more versatile than my TT!

Looks like someone finally provided clarification and will hopefully correct the deficiency! Cool!

[wxtoad]

The Fort Worth office was very helpful and it appears the Canyon Lake "Admin Support Assistant" may be eating his words. Here is what Fort Worth had to say:

"Thank you for your inquiry concerning the definition of primitive camping.

In truth, there is not a single officially and universally recognized definition of what constitutes a "primitive" camping area or campsite, at least not within our agency. In the US Army Corps of Engineers program, the word almost invariably does mean that typical campsite utility services are not provided at individual sites. Beyond that, the word is used by the agency, and is understood by much of the public, to have a wide variety of meanings. What is considered a primitive campsite to an RV camper might be considered well-developed to a tent camper, or even to someone who sleeps in his pickup camper. In the many lakes within our Fort Worth District, for example, we have some RV sites without utilities which are referred to as primitive, we have some delineated but unimproved vehicle sites with developed tent pads which are referred to as primitive, and we have walk-in areas for tent camping referred to as primitive at which visitors are expected to park the vehicles some distance from the actual sites and "pack it in."

Because Canyon Park was constructed many years ago with very few level or adequate vehicular parking spots close to the picnic tables and cookers, it is impractical and even dangerous for RVs and camp trailers to attempt to utilize many of the sites in that park. For this and other reasons, overnight use of Canyon Park is limited to tent camping only.

You are correct that clarification of allowable uses at campsites in these parks is needed for prospective visitors to more accurately research public recreational opportunities. Our Canyon Lake staff will be adding this clarification to the lake's public website in the near future."

WxToad

[wxtoad]

BozemanTrail wrote:


It would be interesting to contact the Fort Worth District Office to see if they are of the same opinion as their "Admin Support Assistant".

http://www.swf.usace.army.mil/Contact.aspx

Done. I'll let you know what they say.

WxToad

[BozemanTrail]

wxtoad wrote:


No need for the recommendation - we have often done that in our 50 years of camping. But that has nothing to do with this situation where the USACE refuses to even consider amending their websites.

WxToad

It would be interesting to contact the Fort Worth District Office to see if they are of the same opinion as their "Admin Support Assistant".

http://www.swf.usace.army.mil/Contact.aspx

[wxtoad]

wbwood wrote:


We always make reservations...So if a place does not accept reservations, then there's a slim chance we are going there. We don't full time and/or not retired and have the ability just to "wing it". Time is of essence for us. And going somewhere without reservations could be a waste of time for us. Plus I like knowing that I have a place in a park after driving hundreds of miles or hours. And not have to look elsewhere. We do not normally pull in to a place until evening time.

I would recommend that you call the places in advance and question them about their sites since there is an issue that you have found and with the way you camp (no reservation).

No need for the recommendation - we have often done that in our 50 years of camping. But that has nothing to do with this situation where the USACE refuses to even consider amending their websites.

WxToad

[wxtoad]

wbwood wrote:

BozemanTrail wrote:

wbwood wrote:
Where did you find the words primitive camping describing a campsite there? When I look at the recreation.gov website (where you make reservations), they describe sites as standard electric, standard nonelectric and tent only. I see nothing (or haven't seen anything as of yet) describing primitive.

http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/canyon/Recreation/Camping/Primitive.asp

says there are no primitive campsites....so what's the argument?

The recreation.gov pages for Canyon Park and North Park say nothing about types of camping and facilities:

http://www.recreation.gov/recreationalAreaDetails.do?contractCode=NRSO&parkId=248411&facilityId=2484...

http://www.recreation.gov/recreationalAreaDetails.do?contractCode=NRSO&parkId=248409&facilityId=2484...

In fact, they don't even mention camping.

Here is the more descriptive page about Canyon Park:

http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/canyon/Recreation/Parks/Corpsparks.asp#CanyonPark

which says: "Canyon Park is a primitive camp ground located on the North shore of Canyon Lake. The facilities include 150 campsites, two overnight shelters, one day use shelter, a boat ramp and courtesy dock, vault toilets, water fountains and over 8 miles of hiking and biking trails. This park is primitive and does NOT offer shower facilities."

Nowhere does it say "tent only". Nothing in that description tells me I can't take my RV there.

Here's the North Park description:

http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/canyon/Recreation/Parks/Corpsparks.asp#North


"North Park is located on the North side of Canyon Lake Dam on North Park Road. There are 19 campsites (no RV hookups), vault toilets, no showers, no boat ramp. Each campsite includes a picnic table and a fire ring. This is a popular scuba diving area."

Again, nothing there says it is "tent only" or that I cannot go there in my RV.

I merely tried to suggest to Mr. Camillocci that they clarify their "tent only" intention on those web pages.

WxToad

[wbwood]

wxtoad wrote:
WBwood wrote: "We just use recreation.gov as we can make reservations online there and have the COE campgrounds and other government campgrounds at one site..."

Recreation.gov is great for locations at which reservations can be made. But it tells you just about nothing about other federal locations that don't accept reservations. A couple of years ago the information used to be comparable for reservable and non-reservable locations, but for some reason they changed that.

Look up Canyon Park on recreation.gov and see how useful it is.

WxToad

We always make reservations...So if a place does not accept reservations, then there's a slim chance we are going there. We don't full time and/or not retired and have the ability just to "wing it". Time is of essence for us. And going somewhere without reservations could be a waste of time for us. Plus I like knowing that I have a place in a park after driving hundreds of miles or hours. And not have to look elsewhere. We do not normally pull in to a place until evening time.

I would recommend that you call the places in advance and question them about their sites since there is an issue that you have found and with the way you camp (no reservation).

[wxtoad]

WBwood wrote: "We just use recreation.gov as we can make reservations online there and have the COE campgrounds and other government campgrounds at one site..."

Recreation.gov is great for locations at which reservations can be made. But it tells you just about nothing about other federal locations that don't accept reservations. A couple of years ago the information used to be comparable for reservable and non-reservable locations, but for some reason they changed that.

Look up Canyon Park on recreation.gov and see how useful it is.

WxToad

[wbwood]

tpi wrote:
http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/canyon/Recreation/Parks/Corpsparks.asp

Check out the descriptions of North Park and Canyon Park. These are the two which evidently are not allowing RVs. Nothing in the description indicates that. Mr. Camillocci's crew could possibly edit the webpage, but at this point it is a nine year old classic! The are shooting for the oldest living webpage contest in 2020.

There's an obvious difference from the website link posted above to the look of the page before it that leads to it. That ought to tell you something. We never use the COE website. We just use recreation.gov as we can make reservations online there and have the COE campgrounds and other government campgrounds at one site....

In case anyone has never used recreation.gov, check this out.

[kohldad]

wxtoad - Next time you talk to them, just ask them the Regulation Number they use to define camping vs RV, and ask for a copy. It must be written some where including the definition of "primitive" and "RV". However, each district has some lee way on how they handle things, but generally it has to be a written policy.

If they can't provide the regulation number, then ask them how they can write you a ticket for having your RV in the area. Just like a police officer, if they don't know what code you are violating, they cannot leave the code blank and fill it in later after looking it up in the code book.

In looking at their website, I see they list Potter's Creek and Crane's Mill as "Camping, RV" while North and Canyon only list "Camping". So they are differentiating between the two. They are all listed under "developed" campground.

While I think of primitive as no facilities except possibly a toilet, usually pit, and developed as having hookups; they are taking it a step further in their definition. I also understand why because they (tenters) don't want to hear a generator running or TV blaring disturbing the quiet. And I don't care how quiet you think your generator is, it can be heard across the campground when it is very quiet. However, they could stop that by just saying "no generators".

[tpi]

http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/canyon/Recreation/Parks/Corpsparks.asp

Check out the descriptions of North Park and Canyon Park. These are the two which evidently are not allowing RVs. Nothing in the description indicates that. Mr. Camillocci's crew could possibly edit the webpage, but at this point it is a nine year old classic! The are shooting for the oldest living webpage contest in 2020.