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3M is Broke!

DiskDoctr
Explorer
Explorer
And it's my fault. I called and asked if I should use Super 77 or 90 to bond sheet fiberglass on a camper to wood, specifically underlayment/luan.

Then..I asked..What is the cure time and at what temperature? 65F-90F for 90.

Is that application temperature or cure temp, and what is the cure time?

Cure time is "24 hours" to be overly cautious.

What happens if the temp drops to 50F overnight, 12hrs after application? Does it stop curing and is ruined, or does it stop curing and won't finish until back above 65F?

Apparently I am the first person in history to ask about cure times and whether the cure is destroyed or simply extended at lower temps :R

But maybe they were already broken before I called? The first person read the chart I told her I have but doesn't have the info on it. The second person thought "sheet fiberglass" was metal :R

Nick in their industrial adhesives and tapes division saved the day! Good information and could understand the project.

FYI. I am rebuilding a bunk end on a hybrid camper before offering it for sale. Want it "perfect" not a soft spot on the bunk.

Getting product/supplies is the hardest part. Really. The work itself is quite simple with a decent set of tools and space to work.

I'm also using high density sheet foam instead of the white stuff. Better performance and strength, IMHO.
10 REPLIES 10

westend
Explorer
Explorer
For fastening systems, I'd look to the Marine industry as they make a lot of hardware for marine environments.

I primarily use contact adhesives for countertops and machine tables. We dispense it by brush rather than spray. A vacuum table is the shiz for a guy that is gluing a lot of surface on a continual basis. The vacuum puts a lot of force on the surfaces and does away with weighting and clamping. You can make a vacuum bag with plastic and a vacuum cleaner if you have the need.
'03 F-250 4x4 CC
'71 Starcraft Wanderstar -- The Cowboy/Hilton

DiskDoctr
Explorer
Explorer
Good information about the epoxy, thanks!

Flapper
Explorer
Explorer
Gjac wrote:
Those are contact adhesives as westend said, they bond instantly after you let both sides tack up. They have a high solvent content that flashes of very quickly that allows this quick curing. I am not sure what you are bonding but if you are bonding the exterior luan to the exterior FG skin that adhesive will soften at about 150 degrees F. So if your are siting in the sun for along time an epoxy would be a better choice. Epoxy adhesives are usually 300 or a little higher before they soften and begin to loose strength.


Ditto - I used to use them a lot for laminating wood to foam for very large model airplanes. Learned my lesson when at a contest on a hot sunny day, and the wings bowed due to delamination. You would be very surprised as to what the "skin" temperature will get to on an RV sitting out in the sun. Use epoxy!
2012 F150 Eco, 4x4, SCrew, Max Tow, HD Payload
2017 Grand Design Imagine 2670MK

DiskDoctr
Explorer
Explorer
westend wrote:
Both of those adhesives cure mighty fast, even at low temps (55f -> 70f). I've used both and they are contact adhesives in a spray can.

I don't know what the RV mfgs are using for foam but it probably isn't high density extruded polystyrene, common in building applications. I have those sheets in my TT and they do a great job with heat transfer.


You're right on both points! In a past life, we used tons of Super 77 for a high density foam to make inserts in Pelican boxes for custom electronics. Well, I made prototypes. The bulk was used by others ๐Ÿ˜‰

I chose to use the denser foam for strength and performance. The edges are sharper and cleaner and the surface is finer. I used a lot of it in our stick and bricks, remodeling an old farm house to keep out the air (or WIND, as it was pretty leaky, LOL).

I used a circular saw to cut it for a very precise fit (Traced the aluminum square tubing frame onto the foam, same as the luan). I figured this stuff is approved for up to 24in on center flooring support, so more than dense enough and significantly better than the original white stuff.

The weight difference is insignificant, maybe ounces. Even though we are just preparing it for sale, I want it to be nice for the next owners. I know cool bottoms of bunks are a comfort and moisture consideration (warm bodies, cold bunk floor), so this should help a bit with that.

I don't remember exactly, but I think the R-factor is something like 40-60% better with this stuff?

I spent about 3 hours prepping the back of the original fiberglass sheet, removing wood, paper, and adhesive with a machete first for the wood (light bits at a time, then as a scraper), then sprayed whatever was left with WD40 and let it soak in a bit, then used a razor blade windshield scraper to finish.

I wiped it down with acetone, though there didn't seem to be any WD40 left after the razor blade, always best to be 100% sure.

After church today the wife and I will lift the top sheet of OSB off the jig, wipe the primed surface of the Luan with a light bit of acetone and a quick wipe of the fiberglass, and make a 2-corner and long edge jig so we can easily align the fiberglass sheet squarely and accurately and "roll" it down onto the luan after coating both surfaces with 3M 90.

About 5 mins working time on the 90, both surfaces are tack immediately (unlike Super 77, which has some setup/tack time and even a light touch and separate to get best adhesion).

I'll then roll/press the fiberglass surface, put a shipping blanket over it to account for surface anomalies and replace the sheet of OSB on top and clamp it all down and add weight to the OSB again and wait about 24hrs.

Then we'll use a rubber mallet to reinstall the aluminum frame/trim all around and replace the screws.

I am still uncertain how I am going to attach the clips for the canvas bungees, though???

The originals were pop riveted. I would like to find something with a plastic dish that I can add a little Dicor under and then fasten to prevent any future repeats of a leaking fastener- which started this whole problem ๐Ÿ˜ž

Maybe something like a cup hook fastens, with a large plastic circle base? But low clearance and plastic to avoid snagging. Maybe plastic buttons with adhesive instead of drilling?

Any suggestions???

Gjac
Explorer III
Explorer III
Those are contact adhesives as westend said, they bond instantly after you let both sides tack up. They have a high solvent content that flashes of very quickly that allows this quick curing. I am not sure what you are bonding but if you are bonding the exterior luan to the exterior FG skin that adhesive will soften at about 150 degrees F. So if your are siting in the sun for along time an epoxy would be a better choice. Epoxy adhesives are usually 300 or a little higher before they soften and begin to loose strength.

westend
Explorer
Explorer
Both of those adhesives cure mighty fast, even at low temps (55f -> 70f). I've used both and they are contact adhesives in a spray can.

I don't know what the RV mfgs are using for foam but it probably isn't high density extruded polystyrene, common in building applications. I have those sheets in my TT and they do a great job with heat transfer.
'03 F-250 4x4 CC
'71 Starcraft Wanderstar -- The Cowboy/Hilton

Lwiddis
Explorer II
Explorer II
Ruined! IMO but check with Nick.
Winnebago 2101DS TT & 2022 Chevy Silverado 1500 LTZ Z71, WindyNation 300 watt solar-Lossigy 200 AH Lithium battery. Prefer boondocking, USFS, COE, BLM, NPS, TVA, state camps. Bicyclist. 14 yr. Army -11B40 then 11A - (MOS 1542 & 1560) IOBC & IOAC grad

DiskDoctr
Explorer
Explorer
afidel wrote:
So what was the answer that Nick gave you RE: lowered temperatures?


Below about 65F, the cure time is slowed. 50F (our overnight low) shouldn't be any danger of messing it up, but freezing temps during cure might.

NRALIFR
Explorer
Explorer
Iโ€™d have I just told you โ€œYou ask too many questions!โ€ and hung up.

:W

:):)
2001 Lance 1121 on a 2016 F450 โ€˜Scuse me while I whinge.
And for all you Scooby-Doo and Yosemite Sam typesโ€ฆโ€ฆโ€ฆ..Letโ€™s Go Brandon!!!

afidel
Explorer II
Explorer II
So what was the answer that Nick gave you RE: lowered temperatures?
2019 Dutchman Kodiak 293RLSL
2015 GMC 1500 Sierra 4x4 5.3 3.42 full bed
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