Pin Weight Increases

op wrote:
I was doing some reading on different forums in the "What do you tow with" threads. I would say that 80% of the people that indicated they tow a 5th wheel with a 3/4 ton truck had a 5th wheel that was much heavier than the one I'm buying. Of course, I have no idea what their vehicle specs were but I'm guessing my truck wasn't the worst of the bunch in that regard.

Opinions about weights on a rv website vary greatly as many don't know or understand legality issues nor do they bother to look up the trucks specs from the truck makers website. Some may have pulled trailers for a living....some just 2-3 rv trailers for 6-8 years....some for 30-40 years and several trucks and trailers.

Without a doubt the 3/4 ton truck/diesel option is the most under rated LDT on the road. In some cases, depending on options and std packages, its the same exact truck as its one ton srw brother....just a different sticker number.

A 2500 GM has a 6200 RAWR. RAWR = the lessor of a tire/wheel/rear spring pack. Scaled weight show most 250/2500 truck have 3000-3200 lb in the bed payloads. You should know your trucks axle weights. That way you will know how much real world payload the truck actually has.

I've loaded several hundreds GN flat bed....GN stock trailers. One thing I've noticed is how little hitch weight is gained by placing weight forward a bit of the trailers axles. Half way didn't equate to half the weight.

rhagfo wrote:

RobWNY wrote:

goducks10 wrote:
Plenty of 5th wheels for 2500's. Maybe not in your area I don't know.

Yeah, There's plenty in my area most on here would say are fine until you actually buy it. Then it's too heavy.

Well the current 5er you have on order, is heavier than the first you discussed.
Dry 8,499
Dry pin 1,625 19.1% of dry weight
CCC 2,086
GVWR 11,585 not what I would consider a lite 5er
At full GVWR and 20% pin you are looking at 2,317# pin

Do you really need 300# of batteries?

This is only slightly heavier than my old Komfort, with an 11,360 GVW, per the sticker. I was solid on my o-loads, but never felt out of control. I don't think I ever approached the GVW, though, as we always tended to camp fairly light. I =did=, when boondocking, carry ice chests and bottled water in the FW, usually right inside the door. Truck load is 10x10 popup, chainsaw (plus gas and spares), shovel, splitting maul and wedge, rake and DW and I in the cab. Haven't yet taken the new KZ out, so don't yet know how it will "load", though virtually everything that went in the bed will likely go in the pass-through. I normally run 2 6v batteries, but will have 2 12v until they go bad and I can replace them.

I tow with the '02 Dmax CC, 4x4 in my sig.

Lyle

ependydad wrote:
You can generally get a decent estimate for non-toy haulers by using a calculator. Figure out what the pin weight percentage is for the dry weights (dry hitch weight / dry weight). Add 3% for an increase (since you're adding heavy batteries to the front; for fewer batteries- you can usually plan for 1-3% increase). Estimate your loaded weight and multiple it against the calculated pin weight percentage (dry percent + 3%). That'll give you a reasonable estimate for what your wet/loaded pin weight will be.

I built an estimator/calculator for just that purpose:
http://towingplanner.com/Estimators/TonguePinWeightFromDry

That's an awesome calculator! Thank you for that!

You can generally get a decent estimate for non-toy haulers by using a calculator. Figure out what the pin weight percentage is for the dry weights (dry hitch weight / dry weight). Add 3% for an increase (since you're adding heavy batteries to the front; for fewer batteries- you can usually plan for 1-3% increase). Estimate your loaded weight and multiple it against the calculated pin weight percentage (dry percent + 3%). That'll give you a reasonable estimate for what your wet/loaded pin weight will be.

I built an estimator/calculator for just that purpose:
http://towingplanner.com/Estimators/TonguePinWeightFromDry

RobWNY wrote:

MFL wrote:
Don't give up Rob! goducks10 gave a good example, as he added the heavy batteries also, with less than 500 lbs added to the pin. In my post, I said you will likely be at 2,200 or less pin. I am guessing your scaled axle, with you, wife, and full fuel, just as the trucks sits right now, maybe 3,000 lbs. That still leaves 3,200 with RAWR 6,200. Deduct hitch 200 lbs., still 3,000 left, deduct other ???, still 2,800 left, deduct for heavy batteries adding to pin 200 lbs, still 2,600. Deduct another 1-2 hundred for bad guessing, still 2,450 left for just the actual pin.

Not that it matters, but neighbor right across the street from my front window, is carrying a 32' Hitch Hiker, with a dry weight of 10,500, with a 2012 2500 Chev crew cab 6.0 gas. He has a turnover ball, with heavy Companion hitch in the back. He has no suspension help, and the truck barely squats when he pulls out. I don't know his loaded pin, but guessing more than yours will be. He tows shorter trips, max 400 miles one way. He says it handles good, and he just turned 80 yrs old.

Jerry

Well Jerry, that does make me feel a little better. I just get a little frustrated sometimes. It seems the more I ask questions or others ask questions, the more people chime in and say you can't do that. Sometimes it seems that you can't tow anything unless you have a Sherman Tank.

"Truck Payload Max 2892" This is NOT enough info to get a proper answer! Listen to what Russ and Jerry have to say!!!

RobWNY wrote:

Lantley wrote:
Boils down to your understanding of the tow ratings and do you believe/trust them or not. If you believe they are valid parameters you will adhere to them. If you don't believe in them, you will do as you please.

Well, my opinion is that the trailer specs are close but no trailer off the line at the manufacturer is going to weigh the same once you get it. There's going to be some variables and the trailers are always going to weigh more. I also think that vehicle manufacturers aren't truthful with weight ratings. I think they all want some sort of competitive edge with their rivals if they can get it. You can find specs and commercials for the big three that will indicate their equally equipped truck is the best. I believe they alll stay within a certain spec to prevent liability issues but if you're overweight by 200 pounds, I'm sure the truck isn't going to collapse. I think most people get into trouble when they go way over weight ratings. I was doing some reading on different forums in the "What do you tow with" threads. I would say that 80% of the people that indicated they tow a 5th wheel with a 3/4 ton truck had a 5th wheel that was much heavier than the one I'm buying. Of course, I have no idea what their vehicle specs were but I'm guessing my truck wasn't the worst of the bunch in that regard.

Any later model 3/4 ton truck is a very capable TV. They are limited by the class 2 10K GVWR, even if ordered, built with same suspension, tire/wheels as the 1 ton SRW. Most times a 3/4 ton gas will be able to stay within class 2 ratings, as they will not have the power/torque, to pull much over rating. The newer 3/4 ton diesels, are capable of towing much more weight, and will often add suspension enhancement, to make them class 3 capable. No, this does not change the stickers, or badges, but does allow them to carry the load more safely.

Rob's truck is a solid 2500, with a proven 6.0 gas, and 4.10 gears. I would tow his new trailer with his truck. I think even with the heavy battery bank, he will still be under RAWR. This assumes he will not load the front closet with GOLD BRICKS.

My old saying...If no one on the public roadways was allowed to be over any truck rating, we would not need to make reservations to camp, even on Holidays. :)

Jerry

Lantley wrote:
Boils down to your understanding of the tow ratings and do you believe/trust them or not. If you believe they are valid parameters you will adhere to them. If you don't believe in them, you will do as you please.

Well, my opinion is that the trailer specs are close but no trailer off the line at the manufacturer is going to weigh the same once you get it. There's going to be some variables and the trailers are always going to weigh more. I also think that vehicle manufacturers aren't truthful with weight ratings. I think they all want some sort of competitive edge with their rivals if they can get it. You can find specs and commercials for the big three that will indicate their equally equipped truck is the best. I believe they alll stay within a certain spec to prevent liability issues but if you're overweight by 200 pounds, I'm sure the truck isn't going to collapse. I think most people get into trouble when they go way over weight ratings. I was doing some reading on different forums in the "What do you tow with" threads. I would say that 80% of the people that indicated they tow a 5th wheel with a 3/4 ton truck had a 5th wheel that was much heavier than the one I'm buying. Of course, I have no idea what their vehicle specs were but I'm guessing my truck wasn't the worst of the bunch in that regard.

Boils down to your understanding of the tow ratings and do you believe/trust them or not. If you believe they are valid parameters you will adhere to them. If you don't believe in them, you will do as you please.

MFL wrote:

RobWNY wrote:

MFL wrote:
Don't give up Rob! goducks10 gave a good example, as he added the heavy batteries also, with less than 500 lbs added to the pin. In my post, I said you will likely be at 2,200 or less pin. I am guessing your scaled axle, with you, wife, and full fuel, just as the trucks sits right now, maybe 3,000 lbs. That still leaves 3,200 with RAWR 6,200. Deduct hitch 200 lbs., still 3,000 left, deduct other ???, still 2,800 left, deduct for heavy batteries adding to pin 200 lbs, still 2,600. Deduct another 1-2 hundred for bad guessing, still 2,450 left for just the actual pin.

Not that it matters, but neighbor right across the street from my front window, is carrying a 32' Hitch Hiker, with a dry weight of 10,500, with a 2012 2500 Chev crew cab 6.0 gas. He has a turnover ball, with heavy Companion hitch in the back. He has no suspension help, and the truck barely squats when he pulls out. I don't know his loaded pin, but guessing more than yours will be. He tows shorter trips, max 400 miles one way. He says it handles good, and he just turned 80 yrs old.

Jerry

Well Jerry, that does make me feel a little better. I just get a little frustrated sometimes. It seems the more I ask questions or others ask questions, the more people chime in and say you can't do that. Sometimes it seems that you can't tow anything unless you have a Sherman Tank.

Rob, everyone has a different comfort level with towing, the reason for so many forum opinions. Yes, many say "you can't do that"! You may go over your truck GVWR a little, but I'm thinking a little room to spare on everything else.

Like mentioned before, PM me anytime,
Jerry

Well I tend to agree with MFL, I don’t make it as a recommendation I do tow to rear axle rating. It is a decision that you need to make yourself.
If you look at an earlier post of mine and look at the signature you will see that I tow a 32’ 5er with a 12,360 GVWR. I do it with a 2001 Ram 2500 CTD, stock Camper Package suspension, TV tows very well on secondary state highways with twist and turns. Likely a tat heavier now that we fulltime!

RobWNY wrote:

MFL wrote:
Don't give up Rob! goducks10 gave a good example, as he added the heavy batteries also, with less than 500 lbs added to the pin. In my post, I said you will likely be at 2,200 or less pin. I am guessing your scaled axle, with you, wife, and full fuel, just as the trucks sits right now, maybe 3,000 lbs. That still leaves 3,200 with RAWR 6,200. Deduct hitch 200 lbs., still 3,000 left, deduct other ???, still 2,800 left, deduct for heavy batteries adding to pin 200 lbs, still 2,600. Deduct another 1-2 hundred for bad guessing, still 2,450 left for just the actual pin.

Not that it matters, but neighbor right across the street from my front window, is carrying a 32' Hitch Hiker, with a dry weight of 10,500, with a 2012 2500 Chev crew cab 6.0 gas. He has a turnover ball, with heavy Companion hitch in the back. He has no suspension help, and the truck barely squats when he pulls out. I don't know his loaded pin, but guessing more than yours will be. He tows shorter trips, max 400 miles one way. He says it handles good, and he just turned 80 yrs old.

Jerry

Well Jerry, that does make me feel a little better. I just get a little frustrated sometimes. It seems the more I ask questions or others ask questions, the more people chime in and say you can't do that. Sometimes it seems that you can't tow anything unless you have a Sherman Tank.

Rob, everyone has a different comfort level with towing, the reason for so many forum opinions. Yes, many say "you can't do that"! You may go over your truck GVWR a little, but I'm thinking a little room to spare on everything else.

Like mentioned before, PM me anytime,
Jerry