When is a purchase a purchase?

[Mondooker]

I recently read a thread on another forum I thought was interesting. It’s seems this guys orders a fifth wheel, it comes in, a PDI is performed and as normal, some items needed fixing. As the story unfolds he gets a loan, signs all the paperwork and leaves the dealership. Awaiting the Coach to be shipped to him once the PDI items are done. Now two weeks have passed and some things on the PDI list are not completed due to things needed from the manufacturer. He hopes to get the Coach next week but wonders if things would have worked better if he hadn’t already signed the paperwork?

After reading this I wondered when in fact is the Coach his? A friend of mine was a GM for a Cadillac dealer. He said he owns the car until it’s driven off the lot. The guy above didn’t say anything about not wanting the Coach. But when is the Coach actually his? When he signed the papers or when he takes delivery?

[dougrainer]

In Texas, the sale is NOT complete until the unit leaves the dealership. When we have customers that for whatever reason CANNOT take the RV that day, they sign ALL paperwork and then we have them drive around the block and return. If it is a Trailer, we connect the Shop truck and have them drive around the block. Once that is done, the RV is THEIRS. Doug

WE do this because years ago we ran into this same type problem.

[valhalla360]

spoon059 wrote:

gbopp wrote:
I would think if he got a loan amd signed all the papers he owns the unit.

Correct, as soon as you sign the paperwork and the dealer either gets the money or stipulates that they will get the money, the camper belongs to the buyer.

None of this "driven off the lot" nonsense. If I bought a car from that Caddie dealer, signed papers and exchanged money, then got in and wrecked into a bunch of parked cars before I left the lot, would that be covered under the dealers insurance? No, the accident occurred in my own privately owned vehicle that had yet to be "driven off the lot", and the responsibility is mine. If it was a test drive, its the dealers insurance. Once I legally own the vehicle, its my insurance.

What if some other customer wrecked into my Caddie after I bought it and left the scene without leaving information? Would the dealership fix the car because it hadn't been driven off the lot? Of course not.

It's a bit more of a gray issue than you describe.

The deal is not limited to you turning over the money to the dealer...the dealer also must turn over the RV in the agreed condition. Both parts are required for the deal to be complete.

For a new vehicle it's assumed to be in brand new condition, unless otherwise agreed. So if there are flaws and you refuse to accept it based on the flaws, the deal is not complete but you can bet the dealer will resist giving you the money back unless you really force the issue (quite possibly including legal action). The net result is the dealer has little incentive to rush the repairs.

Of course, there are ways to minimize the gray area. A good one is to do the PDI and have the issues fixed prior to finalizing payment.

PS: your caddie example is missing the point of "drive it off the lot" comments. You are practicing reducto ad absurdum. The idea is once you take possession and control of the item, is when it becomes your responsibility. When used in this type of discussion, the presumption is that you will make it off the lot before you start ramming into things.

[time2roll]

jsr21 wrote:
I'm a dealer and need baggage door assembly made by Challenger Door, who is owned by Lippert who owns everything else. Lippert is going thru Integration and are probably a month or more behind. I can't even get a part number or price and availability for 4 weeks now. Jayco would get the bay doors and stuff from Lippert. I'm sure the dealer would love to complete the PDI and make the customer happy but they likely have no control over it.

And this situation was in full swing before the pandemic and the run to buy even more RVs.

[jsr21]

Mondooker wrote:
Ok, I can add a little context here. He purchased a Jayco Pinnacle and a friend of his is in management there. Due to that he felt comfortable feeling things will go well. Apparently the dealer did the PDI’s they could do. Others required things shipped from Jayco like two bay doors (have no idea what’s up with that) and something else that had to come from Jayco.

I guess that makes a little more sense. But I think id still rather sign when everything is done. But we may not know all the specifics. .

I do appreciate your input on the legal part of things.

I'm a dealer and need baggage door assembly made by Challenger Door, who is owned by Lippert who owns everything else. Lippert is going thru Integration and are probably a month or more behind. I can't even get a part number or price and availability for 4 weeks now. Jayco would get the bay doors and stuff from Lippert. I'm sure the dealer would love to complete the PDI and make the customer happy but they likely have no control over it.

[laknox]

Even if the buyer owns it, it's not real likely that he's going to be camping in the next 2-3 months, so, were it me, I'd leave it there until it started pissing off the dealer to get it moved. I'd simply state that it's going to sit on his lot until it's fixed to my satisfaction, then contemplate a Magnusson-Moss claim due to "inability to use as designed" if he doesn't get it fixed in a timely manner. 🙂

Lyle

[spoon059]

gbopp wrote:
I would think if he got a loan amd signed all the papers he owns the unit.

Correct, as soon as you sign the paperwork and the dealer either gets the money or stipulates that they will get the money, the camper belongs to the buyer.

None of this "driven off the lot" nonsense. If I bought a car from that Caddie dealer, signed papers and exchanged money, then got in and wrecked into a bunch of parked cars before I left the lot, would that be covered under the dealers insurance? No, the accident occurred in my own privately owned vehicle that had yet to be "driven off the lot", and the responsibility is mine. If it was a test drive, its the dealers insurance. Once I legally own the vehicle, its my insurance.

What if some other customer wrecked into my Caddie after I bought it and left the scene without leaving information? Would the dealership fix the car because it hadn't been driven off the lot? Of course not.

[time2roll]

I have mostly read Jayco is pretty good on warranty work. Do they still have the two year bumper to bumper?
I would call the biggie before getting too hard on the dealer.

[Mondooker]

Hi time2roll, I have no idea about that. The guy just seemed comfortable because a friend of his is a biggy at Jayco and what has to be completed has to come from Jayco.

[time2roll]

Mondooker wrote:
Hi dedmiston, The plot thickens, I just checked and the guy is from Charlotte, NC where it is titled. But his dealer is in Orlando Florida where he signed the papers and will take delivery. Does what you said still apply, no ownership until it leaves the dealership?

I assume the paperwork included a disclosure that the deal is final with no cancellation or cooling off period.

[BurbMan]

Once the paperwork is signed and the bank funds the note, he owns the unit. His punchlist has gone from PDI to warranty work. Ideally, the buyer wouldn't have signed until the PDSI stuff was fixed. But in today's market, the dealer probably put the squeeze on him and said sign now or I'll sell it to somebody else.

If the dealer is truly waiting on parts from the mfr to fix the unit, then it really doesn't matter whether it's warranty or PDI, the dealer has top wait for the parts.

[Cummins12V98]

Plain and simple don’t pay in full until the punch list is 100% complete.

[ItsyRV]

Mondooker wrote:
But when is the Coach actually his? When he signed the papers or when he takes delivery?

When the buyer signs the completed Bill Of Sale declaration in the purchase agreement, they now own it. If the buyer is in possession of, or the dealer has submitted the documentation needed to title and/or register the unit, the buyer most certainly owns that puppy.

[Lwiddis]

"Never ever sign the papers until all work is completed to your satisfaction."

x2, Chief

[Mondooker]

Hi dedmiston, The plot thickens, I just checked and the guy is from Charlotte, NC where it is titled. But his dealer is in Orlando Florida where he signed the papers and will take delivery. Does what you said still apply, no ownership until it leaves the dealership?