Best house battery?

[drumz]

Hi guys.
I'm sure this discussion is somewhere on here, I can't seem to find it.
Anyway my house battery has died. It was a Lifeline AGM deep cycle. These batteries are pricey and heavy! Someone told me that I don't really need an AGM battery, that a good quality deep cycle is cheaper,lighter and will actually hold a better charge.
I did some research and found that AGM batteries are better for vibration resistance, but really your engine battery takes the same amount of shakes and bumps that the house battery would right?
So what are your thoughts? Pay the extra for a AGM, or just go with a top of the line deep cycle?
Jerry, Penna.

[Gjac]

pianotuna wrote: What I would love to know is, after those 1500 deep cycles, is there still 80% of the capacity left? (I'm using that number as it is where electric vehicle batteries are considered "done in".) This is a good question. I have a nickel hydride battery in my hybrid Rav 4. It operates best between 20%- 80% SOC (it never fully charges except on long down hills , much different than Li or SiO2 or wet cell. These are cheaper than Li and last 15 years in a car that is a DD, don’t know what they would last in a MH used 3 months a year.

[pnichols]

pianotuna wrote:
My next set will be SiO2. They can withstand 620 cycles to stone bone dead. Self discharge rate is 1.6% per month.

Don ... I just spent some time studying SiO2 12V batteries for drop-in RV use.

They look ideal ... and less $$$$ and less "tricky" than using Li batteries in an RV.

I may seriously consider them whenever I replace my two AGM RV batteries.

Thanks for bringing this type battery to my attention! 🙂

[pnichols]

pianotuna wrote:
Hi Phil,

My oem fuse was in a box inside the engine compartment, more or less straight in front of the driver, and 1/3rd of the way back from the grill. It is right on top allowing easy access. My unit is also an E-450 so yours may be quite similar.

I do see over 70 amps--but because of the circuit breakers which I deliberately got at 50 amps the current is interrupted.

When I first heated water, I kept the power on until the chassis battery was at 12.3. Then I cut it off until it had recovered.

Hmmm ... my high initial charging currents from the alternator to a ~50% discharged coach battery bank don't suddenly stop as if cut off by a fuse. These initial currents merely taper down as the coach batteries charge up. There doesn't appear to be anything drastic happening like a fuse or circuit breaker opening up. :h

P.S. Recall that I know actually what current is going into or out of my coach battery bank at all times via a shunt I installed in the battery bank's negative lead. The shunt voltage feeds an ammeter on the cab dash (actually a voltmeter interpreting voltage values from the shunt) - so I can see coach battery bank current flow at all times. I've never seen the coach battery bank's charging current make a sudden step-function change, as it probably would if a fuse inline from the alternator opened.

[pianotuna]

Hi Phil,

My oem fuse was in a box inside the engine compartment, more or less straight in front of the driver, and 1/3rd of the way back from the grill. It is right on top allowing easy access. My unit is also an E-450 so yours may be quite similar.

I do see over 70 amps--but because of the circuit breakers which I deliberately got at 50 amps the current is interrupted.

When I first heated water, I kept the power on until the chassis battery was at 12.3. Then I cut it off until it had recovered.

[pnichols]

pianotuna wrote:

pnichols wrote:


I think that my coach battery interconnect solenoid connects the chassis battery in direct parallel with the coach batteries, so there's nothing to protect the alternator (?) from getting really hit with high initial inrush charging current if I were to drop in Battle Born Li batteries, from what I read about them

I think your inrush argument doesn't hold water for several reasons.

1. my class c had an oem 60 fuse--so if inrush exceeded that, it would blow.

2. my class C had #8 wire for the oem charging path. That limits it to about 50 amps.

I did replace the OEM fuse with a 50 amp automatic circuit breaker. I also added a 2nd charging path with #8 wire, switchable solenoid, and automatic circuit breaker.

Anecdotally, my alternator is still OEM and I do push it hard--even so far as running the 1400 watt water heater via the inverter. I use a 1/3 duty cycle--20 minutes of heating and 40 minutes off. That lets me arrive at the boondocking site with hot water and lots of battery power.

There is an excellent article on inrush at the smartgauge site.

When I said "direct parallel" that wasn't including any OEM fuses that might be in place. For what it's worth, my 2005 Itasca (also on a model year 2005 E450 chassis) has at times shown over 70 amps going into my coach batteries, for a bit, when I first start idling the V10 to charge up ~50% discharged coach batteries.

So if my chassis has OEM fuses somewhere after the 130 amp Ford alternator, then they're larger than 50 amp. Winnebago may have gotten involved in all this someway when they built the coach, but so far I can't find out how - with cursory poking around the chassis and from looking at the Winnie electrical schematics for the coach. :h

[pianotuna]

Gjac wrote:
I guess I don't understand these silicone dioxide batteries enough to form an opinion, but I see them listed on Amazon from $1100-$1300 for 2 6v 260 AHs or 12v 270 AHs. One can buy 2 6v Sam's Club GC batteries for under $200. Will these batteries last 5 times longer? To break even in cost per AH that would be 50 years.

I don't pretend to understand their pricing.

A 100 amp 12 volt jar is sold at $600 cdn (about 450 usd). That provides 80 amp hours and 1500 cycles. A pair would provide more usable capacity than the Golf cart jars, and cost less per cycle.

They appear to be "batteries for dummies" as you can take them to zero state of charge 620 times. That's an amazing number.

What I would love to know is, after those 1500 deep cycles, is there still 80% of the capacity left? (I'm using that number as it is where electric vehicle batteries are considered "done in".)

[pnichols]

The better question might be: If battery PRICE was no object for every RV'er whenever they bought batteries - then what would be the only battery type left on the market?

(Actually, from my EE courses - an air super capacitor is the ultimate battery if one has the room for it ... can't be overcharged, can't be undercharged, can be taken to zero or any point in between every time, and not counting natural metal corrosion - will last forever. 😉 )

[wolfe10]

2oldman wrote:

whemme wrote:
My opinion on a lot of these types of questions is that if there truly was a one and only one best house battery, it would be the only one left on the market.

x2. The question is really, "what's best for me?"

With one further criteria: At what price point OR SAID ANOTHER WAY dependent or independent of price.

No question, the choice for a full timer who dry camps most of the time should be entirely different from the weekender who keeps their coach plugged into shore power 95% of the time.

[2oldman]

whemme wrote:
My opinion on a lot of these types of questions is that if there truly was a one and only one best house battery, it would be the only one left on the market.

x2. The question is really, "what's best for me?"

[2oldman]

Gjac wrote:
to break even in cost per AH that would be 50 years.

True, but some people are willing to pay for convenience, no maintenance, longevity and performance.

[Gjac]

I guess I don't understand these silicone dioxide batteries enough to form an opinion, but I see them listed on Amazon from $1100-$1300 for 2 6v 260 AHs or 12v 270 AHs. One can buy 2 6v Sam's Club GC batteries for under $200. Will these batteries last 5 times longer? To break even in cost per AH that would be 50 years.

[pianotuna]

pnichols wrote:


I think that my coach battery interconnect solenoid connects the chassis battery in direct parallel with the coach batteries, so there's nothing to protect the alternator (?) from getting really hit with high initial inrush charging current if I were to drop in Battle Born Li batteries, from what I read about them

I think your inrush argument doesn't hold water for several reasons.

1. my class c had an oem 60 fuse--so if inrush exceeded that, it would blow.

2. my class C had #8 wire for the oem charging path. That limits it to about 50 amps.

I did replace the OEM fuse with a 50 amp automatic circuit breaker. I also added a 2nd charging path with #8 wire, switchable solenoid, and automatic circuit breaker.

Anecdotally, my alternator is still OEM and I do push it hard--even so far as running the 1400 watt water heater via the inverter. I use a 1/3 duty cycle--20 minutes of heating and 40 minutes off. That lets me arrive at the boondocking site with hot water and lots of battery power.

There is an excellent article on inrush at the smartgauge site.

[pianotuna]

pnichols wrote:


P.S. Why aren't SiO2 batteries talked about more in the forums?

I think because they are the "new kid on the block"?

The reason I want them is that there is no need to get to 100% and they can be used and charged at -40.

I'd consider "Firefly" batteries, too--but they do want a 100% charge after 30 partial charges--and want to be presented with 2/C of current (50 amps on a 100 amp jar). They are also a heck of a lot more expensive than SiO2.

[pnichols]

Ooooops ... Don, I apologize! I misunderstood SiO2 batteries to be lithium ion batteries.

I prefer Group 31 size in any type battery I might use since two of them fit perfectly right under the step where Winnebago intended them to be, so why restrict myself to using only a couple of Group 27 size there? I don't think that the lithium ion brand I referred to comes in a Group 31 size (not sure on this though), so to spend the $$$$ for them in only Group 27 size would be not stuffing the available space with as many AH as possible.

I think that my coach battery interconnect solenoid connects the chassis battery in direct parallel with the coach batteries, so there's nothing to protect the alternator (?) from getting really hit with high initial inrush charging current if I were to drop in Battle Born Li batteries, from what I read about them - but you're talking about SiO2 battereis, which I know nothing about.

I rarely charge my big AGMs "fully" when camping. I rely on the drive home or RV storage at home to bring them to 100% using the low and slow method. The only time they see 14.XX charging volts is for a little while right after I start up a cold V10 alternator. 😉

P.S. Why aren't SiO2 batteries talked about more in the forums?