Ford admits to "Generic Alignment"

[Harvard]

I never thought I would live to see the day that Ford actually admitted to the "generic alignment".

Ford Generic Alignment

Thanks to handle "ruffingit" for the posting the experience.

[Harvard]

BSWS19 wrote:
Add me to the list of believers. I took Harvard's advice and convinced an experienced front end guy to give me a little extra caster than he was used to. He didn't think 5+ would make a lot of difference, but he was comfortable that it wouldn't cause any harm either so he agreed. It's a huge improvement, and I'm talking about a new Winnebago 31K with 2K miles on it. Next I added Hellwig sway bars and it handles exactly how I hoped it would.

It is a tough sell when we amateurs have to convince the pros on the improved handling value of more caster on this specific chassis.

[BSWS19]

Add me to the list of believers. I took Harvard's advice and convinced an experienced front end guy to give me a little extra caster than he was used to. He didn't think 5+ would make a lot of difference, but he was comfortable that it wouldn't cause any harm either so he agreed. It's a huge improvement, and I'm talking about a new Winnebago 31K with 2K miles on it. Next I added Hellwig sway bars and it handles exactly how I hoped it would.

[Harvard]

But they could add +2 degrees of caster to the generic alignment so it is more suitable for highway driving in its final build configuration. Would be much safer on the highway and no big deal in the city. IMO

[ron_dittmer]

DrewE wrote:

theoldwizard1 wrote:

ron.dittmer wrote:
It is not possible to align a bare unload cut-away chassis so that the alignment is good for the end product.

So how much weight does a full fresh water tank add and will it affect the alignment ?

Hopefully people are not driving long distances with full black and gray water tanks.

For water, as the saying goes, "a pint's a pound the world around" -- not exactly, but a rough rule of thumb. My water tank adds a few hundred pounds total when full, and unloads the front axle by perhaps half that since as it's located pretty far towards the back of the motorhome. That shouldn't be (and indeed is not) enough to greatly affect the handling.

I am not quite sure why it's inadvisable to drive long distances with (at least partly) full black or gray water tanks. Generally, when they're full the fresh water tank is empty and vice-versa, at least for me. The general progression when camping is that fresh water becomes darkened, so to speak, through washing and cooking and eating and associated activities, until it's time to dump the black and gray and refill the fresh.

What Ron's referring to is a lot more than merely adding or shifting water, though; it's more like adding an entire studio apartment. It would be nice if RV builders did a thorough alignment (to suitable specs for the finished vehicle) before shipping the finished motorhome, but that's not a Ford issue by any means; it's well beyond their control at that point. It would also be nice if RV builders all consistently paid attention to installing neat electrical and plumbing and HVAC systems, and to making sure everything was sealed and tightened properly, and generally to having quality workmanship. Some makes do better than others.

When I stated "bare unloaded cut-away chassis", I am referring to this.

Ford cannot anticipate the load or distribution added by the RV manufacture and us the consumer with all we carry. Therefore any "generic" alignment done at the Ford assembly line is done so just to prevent tire damage when driving the "BARE" chassis around.

[Stim]

DrewE wrote:

Stim wrote:

Sorry, Twin I Beam and straight axles don't have ball joints, they have King Pins.

The newer, as in the last couple of decades or so, E series chassis very much have a twin I-Beam front axle with ball joints. I have seen the beams and the ball joints on my motorhome. I have also paid to have the ball joints replaced on it because the rubber seals on the original permanently lubricated ones broke down eventually and the permanent lubrication escaped.

I guess I am living in the past. 😮

[Harvard]

So, when the unsuspecting new RV owner takes delivery of their brand new RV
they are getting an RV with a "generic alignment".

At best, they are told to have the vehicle aligned with normal loading.

Then the alignment they get is the "tweak the toe and its good to go" where the
caster and camber remain at the settings from the "generic alignment" off the
assembly line.

And Ford admits this is the way it is unless the consumer is informed
to do otherwise.

[DrewE]

Stim wrote:

Sorry, Twin I Beam and straight axles don't have ball joints, they have King Pins.

The newer, as in the last couple of decades or so, E series chassis very much have a twin I-Beam front axle with ball joints. I have seen the beams and the ball joints on my motorhome. I have also paid to have the ball joints replaced on it because the rubber seals on the original permanently lubricated ones broke down eventually and the permanent lubrication escaped.

[maillemaker]

I am not quite sure why it's inadvisable to drive long distances with (at least partly) full black or gray water tanks. Generally, when they're full the fresh water tank is empty and vice-versa, at least for me. The general progression when camping is that fresh water becomes darkened, so to speak, through washing and cooking and eating and associated activities, until it's time to dump the black and gray and refill the fresh.

This was my thought as well. If I can travel with a full tank of water, why can't I travel with the same water in my waste tanks?

Sometimes, I even travel home with *more* water, as if I hook up to city water my fresh water tank will still be full and when I leave it's possible my waste tanks still have stuff in them. Generally if I have access to city water I have full hookups though.

Steve

[soren]

I do business with a large truck repair facility that does a lot of "tune up" work on brand new fleet rigs before they are put in use. One of their techs. told me that a critical part of that package is to do a full alignment on the truck. He claimed that there isn't a truck that leaves the assembly line with usable alignment. Doesn't matter if it's a cab and chassis, or a stretched class 8 with a condo sleeper, they all can be greatly improved by properly setting them up before putting them in service.

[Stim]

Harvard wrote:

carringb wrote:

Stim wrote:

To change camber the axle has to be bent or straightened to set.

Not since the 80's.

Camber and caster are set with offset bushings, which move the ball-joints, just like any other modern vehicle. The only difference is the bushing come in fixed offsets, instead of being adjustable, because adjustable bushings can move under extreme loading scenarios.

My theory on the factory offset bushings with the keyed protrusions just allow for a "tweak the toe and it is good to go" off the assembly line and nothing to do with the adjustable being able to move when torqued to the specified torque. JMO. Just maybe I will live long enough to know for sure.

Sorry, Twin I Beam and straight axles don't have ball joints, they have King Pins.

[Harvard]

carringb wrote:

Stim wrote:

To change camber the axle has to be bent or straightened to set.

Not since the 80's.

Camber and caster are set with offset bushings, which move the ball-joints, just like any other modern vehicle. The only difference is the bushing come in fixed offsets, instead of being adjustable, because adjustable bushings can move under extreme loading scenarios.

My theory on the factory offset bushings with the keyed protrusions just allow for a "tweak the toe and it is good to go" off the assembly line and nothing to do with the adjustable being able to move when torqued to the specified torque. JMO. Just maybe I will live long enough to know for sure.

[carringb]

Stim wrote:

To change camber the axle has to be bent or straightened to set.

Not since the 80's.

Camber and caster are set with offset bushings, which move the ball-joints, just like any other modern vehicle. The only difference is the bushing come in fixed offsets, instead of being adjustable, because adjustable bushings can move under extreme loading scenarios.

[Harvard]

DrewE wrote:

....
For what it's worth, I think my class C (on a Ford chassis) has the factory caster setting, whatever it is, and it's not a wandering beast, nor difficult to control....

And this is where we will have to agree to disagree. I would wager that somewhere along the construction of your RV the caster got set to be +5 or greater. If you would like to prove me wrong just take a picture of the top of an upper ball joint so we can get a visual of one of your alignment sleeves.

[DrewE]

theoldwizard1 wrote:

ron.dittmer wrote:
It is not possible to align a bare unload cut-away chassis so that the alignment is good for the end product.

So how much weight does a full fresh water tank add and will it affect the alignment ?

Hopefully people are not driving long distances with full black and gray water tanks.

For water, as the saying goes, "a pint's a pound the world around" -- not exactly, but a rough rule of thumb. My water tank adds a few hundred pounds total when full, and unloads the front axle by perhaps half that since as it's located pretty far towards the back of the motorhome. That shouldn't be (and indeed is not) enough to greatly affect the handling.

I am not quite sure why it's inadvisable to drive long distances with (at least partly) full black or gray water tanks. Generally, when they're full the fresh water tank is empty and vice-versa, at least for me. The general progression when camping is that fresh water becomes darkened, so to speak, through washing and cooking and eating and associated activities, until it's time to dump the black and gray and refill the fresh.

What Ron's referring to is a lot more than merely adding or shifting water, though; it's more like adding an entire studio apartment. It would be nice if RV builders did a thorough alignment (to suitable specs for the finished vehicle) before shipping the finished motorhome, but that's not a Ford issue by any means; it's well beyond their control at that point. It would also be nice if RV builders all consistently paid attention to installing neat electrical and plumbing and HVAC systems, and to making sure everything was sealed and tightened properly, and generally to having quality workmanship. Some makes do better than others.