Reflections on 6 Months of RV Research! ;)

[DeanCHS1980]

Hi Class C Forum,

I caught the RV bug about 6 months ago after a particularly stressful stretch at work. Researching RVs has become the way that I decompress when I have some discretionary time. Currently, I have many semesters of college tuition to pay for our two daughters before making the RV plunge. In the meantime, I am going to continue to read forums and blogs as well as watching RV videos on You Tube. My DW and I even attended our first RV show in January. I live about 400 miles south of Elkhart, IN and we are considering a trip to the Promise Land this summer! 😉

I "think" I have learned enough over the last six months that I wanted to summarize my thoughts and get some reactions from the pros. Of all the forums I have read over the months, this Class C Forum on RV.Net has been the one that I have read the most and has engaged my interest the most. Here is a summary of my thoughts about RVs.

First, buying an RV is a series of compromises. Most of us have limited incomes, so how much we spend is the first consideration. Related to that is whether one buys new or used. There are obviously benefits and challenges associated with both. The other issue is whether to buy a Class A, B, C, or a Truck Camper. I love the "idea" of a truck camper. The largest models by Host, Chalet, Lance, and Eagle Cap with double and triple slides are quite impressive; however, they require significant trucks to carry them, you have to exit the truck to enter them, and you often have to extend the slides to enter them. Despite my attraction to TCs, my rational and logical DW was not overly impressed. Class As represent the other end of the spectrum, typically. They are larger and often quite luxurious and include significant floor plan options and storage. However, I believe my DW and I would prefer the RVs associated with a van-like chassis. One option is the Class B or van conversions. Research and the opportunity to see a couple at a recent RV show led us to the conclusion that these are just too small for us. They are precision instruments and their followers are passionate and I appreciate this, but not for us. For the above reasons, I think the Class C represents the BEST compromise for my DW and myself, thus my decision to post this on the Class C forum.

OK, having chosen a Class C, I have determined there are still a wide number of variables to consider. Length, height, and width are all important variables to consider. I have discovered that gas vs diesel and MB or Ford or Chevy are hot topics among RVers. I have learned much from reading about these passionate discussions. Even once the decision that a Class C is probably best, there are still many fun compromises to be contemplated because I would like to have a 31 to 32 foot floor plan in a 25 foot rig. Obviously, the laws of physics are going to prevent that! For me, I break length into three categories 1) 24 to 26 feet, 2) 26 to 29 feet, and 3) 29 to 32 feet. Given these three categories, for me, I am leaning toward the tweener category of 26 to 29 feet. In terms of width, I prefer not wider than 8 feet (96 inches). In terms of height, I prefer 10'6" or under. This brings up another apparent controversy within the Class C RV world. I think I prefer a Class B+. Of course, I prefer the class that does not really exist! Go figure. Technically, I understand that a Class B+ is really a Class C. Got it! To round out my preferences, I lean gas over diesel and I lean Ford over MB, yet I still look at Ram Pro Master models as well. In terms of floor plans, I prefer a permanent bed on the floor, thus I like island beds or twin beds over corner beds, cab over bunks, or multipurpose beds. If I have to choose between a sofa or a dinette, I choose a sofa. Of course this brings us to the issue of "to slide or not to slide" AND if you are going to slide, then how many??? Hmmm, I would prefer a non-slide unit, but that is not realistic for what we want in a floor plan, thus I am fine with slides, but the fewer the better. Thus, a sofa slide is acceptable to help open up the floor plan. Oh, and I have not even mentioned the variables of cargo carrying capacity (CCC) and outside storage. Whew!

Based on the above, here are the manufacturers, models, and floor plans that interest me the most (alphabetical order). All seem to be of high quality, imo (understanding that quality is a relative term). Here we go. . .

Born Free (Splendor would be my choice despite it being a corner bed). BFs are pricey, though.

Coach House (Platinum 271 XL). Again, Coach House is pricey!

Dynamax (Isata 280 or 282). Nice, but pricey!

Leisure Travel Vans (Unity IB or TB). Great units. Living area a bit tight. MB chassis. But, sweet!

Lexus (Viper 27V). Impressive quality, given the price. Most economical. Two slides.

Lazy Daze (27 ft. Mid-bath). No slides, nice. But, no real permanent twin beds.

Phoenix Cruiser (2552 model). Single slide. Nice floor plan, despite preferring a mid-bath floor plan.

Winnebago/Itasca (View 24V or Navion 24V). Best all around floor plan, imo. But, on the MB chassis and living/galley area a bit tight.

OK, I have listed my preferences in terms of the many compromising variables that one must consider along with the manufacturers that I prefer, so if I had to really get down to it, which would I choose?

Assuming buying new, I would have to remove Born Free, Coach House, and Dynamax from my list. I can't imagine choosing to pay what I would need to pay for those sweet rigs. I love the retro nature and quality of Lazy Daze, but there is no floor plan that entices me without going out to 31 feet. This narrows it down to my Top 4. The LTV Unity models are amazing, but perhaps a bit tight in the living/galley quarters and they are on the MB chassis. The Winnebago/Itasca (Views 24V/Navions 24V) are efficient in length and in all dimensions other than height. Love the placement of the TV relative to the sofa (single slide that opens up the floor plan, plus the versatility of a bunk over the cab). The living/galley area is still a wee tight and on the MB chassis, but the best overall floor plan, imo. This brings me to the Nexus Viper 27V and the Phoenix Cruiser 2552. The Phoenix Cruiser 2552 is a bit more "trim" and efficient in terms of being 8 inches shorter in length (27' 10"), 3 inches narrower (93"), 3 inches shorter in height (10' 1"). All of these issues are important to me. Despite having a beautiful rear bathroom, I prefer a mid-bath to isolate the bedroom area. I don't really like the location of the TV. And, there is limited external storage. On the other hand, Phoenix Cruiser (like Nexus) will work to customize the coach for you and both are factory direct, which I like. So, if I had the fortune to choose today, I would choose a Phoenix Cruiser 2552 with some bells and whistles!!! 🙂

However, since I am at the beginning of my RV quest, EVERYTHING is possible and I can change my mind as much as I want. Besides, being too windy, what are your thoughts about my RV review? Are there issues, variables, or other items that I still need to factor into the equation? The only reason that I know what I know is because of the expertise, wisdom, passion, and experience shared by those like you on this forum.

Thanks,

Dean

[ron_dittmer]

Dean,

We were in the same situation as you 8 years ago with kids going to college, but we were 49 years old then. Fast forward to today and our decision to buy our B+ has been a good idea. If not for our motor home, we would not be taking these great vacations, just my wife and me. It has been so good to do life as a couple again after so many years as parents with kids of all ages to tend to. I hope to retire sooner than later with more opportunity to travel in the B+. We plan to keep it until we we either wear it out or get too old and dangerous to drive it.

Ron Dittmer

[DeanCHS1980]

Hi rv4jimnme,

Love your post. I am not exactly young at 52, but your post resonated with me. My DW and I are trying to find a way to get into RVing. I have had the bug for about 10 months. Now my DW has it, too! Nice!!! We really like Class Cs in the 22 to 29 foot range as indicated by this string; however, with 10 years to retirement and two daughters in college, thus lots of expenses, I am wondering if a small travel trailer that can be pulled by a tow vehicle doubling as a commuting car makes more sense in terms of getting into RVing earlier. A Class C may become our aspirational vehicle. Looking forward to reading about your search for a small Class C. I appreciate forums like this due to having experts like you!

Thanks!

[rv4jimnme]

pnichols wrote:
The Sunseeker 2300 looks very good on paper ... assuming subtle behind the scenes workmanship is there.

It's not quite obvious from the floorplan, but it looks like both front cab seats can be swiveled to face back on either the Chevy or Ford chassis. If so, this means that the floor must not have any step-up going from the cab to the coach. Swivel seats is a super feature on Ford or Chevy chassis based Class C motorhomes if the 2300 has it, but what you may be giving up to get the flat floor that makes these seats possible is outside storage cabinets that aren't very tall ... hence restrictive in what can they can carry.

The fresh water capacity is way up there, just under that of class-leading Lazy Daze fresh water capacity.

Notice that the Chevy chassis is about 6 inches longer with the same 2300 coach on it. I'm partial to having a V10 Ford E450 with a TorqShift tranny under a rig like the 2300, but many would argue that the 4500 Chevy would be just as good or superior due to cab room around the doghouse. DO NOT get the 2300 on the Ford E350 or Chevy 3500 ... only the E450 or 4500 will do.

You might want to make sure that the driver's seat can be slid all the way back and tilted most of the way back without bumping into the dinette.

Does the Sunseeker come with a spare and tire changing equipment and does it come with heated grey and black tanks for cold weather driving and camping?

Good luck with your shopping!

We just got thru test driving a Coachman Prism, the seats do turn around but to me are useless except maybe for children as you have a step down so when facing rear your sitting down in a well area. I would like to find ones that when facing rear can offer a eating table or a computer table. The only thing I can see about these is you could sit there to visit with folks but you have to grab on to something to pull yourself upright out of that low position.

[rv4jimnme]

Bordercollie wrote:
You have done a great job of gleaning info from this forum and realize that your choice of motorhome or other type of RV is a matter of personal taste, your current understanding of what is available and how often and in what ways you will use one.

A class C motorhome is a box truck full of appliances and other gizmos that when working properly, give you some of the comforts of home while on the road, camping, or as a support vehicle for local sports, hobby, and family days at a local park. We bought a 27 foot 2004 (bumper to bumper) Fleeetwood Tioga Class C model 26Q new in 2003 that is our idea of the best compromise for our forseeable use. It has a rear bedroom with RV queen bed, a huge lighted storage area in the rear, and standard mid bath, galley, comvertible dinette and barrel chair and large overhead bed/storage area. It does not have or need slides for our use.

Bear in mind that total cost of ownership includes early depreciation, taxes, vehicle registration, insurance, scheduled maintenance of truck part, maintenance of apppliances, airconditioning, charger/converter and batteries. Our fridge, roof air conditioner, converter/charger and batteries, awning fabric and fresh water pump all required replacement at around 10 years. Annual inspection of the roof and resealing of potential water leak entry points will prevent dreaded water leak damage.

You should look at and compare the cost vs workmanship, design and features, including roof construction of "entry" level to luxury brands and models in your quest for knowledge. Owning a motorhome is actually taking on a "hobby" including periodic maintenance of batteries, and performing minor DIY fixes and replacements, and getting professional services from dealer or rv repair as needed. Owning a motorhome is similar to owning and maintaining a cabin cruiser boat. If you use and enjoy it a lot after the first year, it may be worth the total cost and effort of ownership.

We recently sold our 2007 Pace Arrow, I was told don't add up what you have spent on it for the 9 years we owned it. But I could not resist. The figure was aprox $27,000.00. The larger items included $4,000 in new tires, $1,500 in new magic sleeper sofa (not comfortable my $100.00 futon metal frame worked much better. And sumo springs at around $2,000.00 A great deal of the money was committed to keeping the roof in good order, i.e. inspections, reseal and constant up keep, also the marine toilet vacu flush system was an issue until we became knowledgeable on it. Lots of money went to washing and waxing and keeping stuff like the levelers and slide out clean and working. So being the money wise person I am I took what we purchased it for added the $27,000.00 (which by the way does not include your gas which we went across country when gas was $5.00 a gallon or so and of course camping fees. I then subtracted what I recently sold it for then divided that figure by 9 years (and months) and got a monthly figure of what it costs to buy (new) own and maintain an RV. Because we full timed in it for part of those years and were able to rent our home the figure works out fine for us. We saw almost all the United States and we would not trade our memories for any amount of money, however, that being said if you take the above figures into consideration and you do not use or travel much you need to make sure you want to spend your money that way. My advice to younger folks is never put a great deal of money in an RV, instead buy a trailer or 5th wheel and use the truck each day as your commute. In that way the only thing depreciating is the trailer and you did not spend an arm and a leg buying it. We are too old to do that now and we loved our home on wheels. In fact I never would have wanted a trailer to begin with but if you are saving for college for your kids it makes better sense to me. My figures came out to about $112,000.00 spent totally over 9 years but that figure for me is reduced by rental income and full timing to about $60,000.00. So I am a happy camper. Especially because my mini home was 1.5 baths, washer dryer and had all the comforts of home. I am on this forum now looking for a small class C so I must have not learned any lessons or I just love RVing so much I will not let go!

[DeanCHS1980]

Hi George,

I had a chance to visit Van City in St. Louis in March on my way to KC, MO. Van City specializes in Class Bs and svelte Class Cs (that some call a B Plus). I had a chance to get inside the Villagio by Renegade. It was a twin bed model. Very nice. I did not have much time and I was only window shopping, so I concentrated on the interior; however, I believe that it has a full crowned fiberglass roof. Nice rig. They also had a couple of Leisure Travel Van Unity models. Very, very nice! Personally, I would lean LTV over the Villagio, but both are nice. They also had some Pleasure Way products. I really liked the PW Pursuit, but it has no real permanent bed. Fit and finish were outstanding, plus it is on the Ford E350 chassis, thus an option other than an MB Sprinter chassis. Unfortunately, I think this is the last year for the Pursuit. Too bad. In any case, I think the Villagio is worth a look, but it has very stiff competition, imo.

Take care,

Dean

[masterge]

Does the 2015 Villagio have a full fiberglass roof or does it just have fiberglass TPO front / end caps with TPO in between?

PghBob wrote:
Hi Dean. I took some time to review what I could on the Villagio RVs on line this morning. My biggest concern, and also a red flag for me, is that on their specs. page there is no mention of OCCC, wet weight, dry weight, or anything that would permit a guestimation of the OCCC. You noted on your first post, that you might/will be traveling with DW and 2 teen-aged daughters. Having the same family make-up, let me assure you that they will bring more stuff on trips than you might think. So, plan on weight. That means you need to have the OCCC to carry your family and all of your stuff (more weight). So, whatever unit you are checking out, make sure the chassis, axles, and tires can handle your weight needs. Keep in mind that goodies like slide-outs, leveling jacks, and dealer installed options all subtract from OCCC. Don't expect a sales rep to know or provide this info. Look for the official stickers inside the unit somewhere. I've also noted that you might travel this summer to check out more units. If you have the time, you might consider the largest RV show in the country that happens in Hershey PA, about mid-September. Every type of RV from tear-drop TTs to the big Class As are represented. Best wishes for a successful search.

[pnichols]

Dean,

Keep on looking and dreaming ... that's the fun initial part of joining the RV world!

Be patient - our first RV was a Dodge van the DW and myself converted ourselves that we eventually gave away, our second one was an old timer we got for $5K and eventually gave away, and our current one took a long time before we could retire and somehow afford it ... which we'll probably have to sell for a song or give away eventually.

Good luck. Keep us posted on your progress.

[DeanCHS1980]

Hii D.E.Bishop,

"I applaud your systematic investigation and analysis. . ."

Thanks! My approach is based on few factors:

1. Whether buying a car, TV, phone, beer, or running shoes, I enjoy the process of researching the product. Of course, buying an RV is a whole new world.

2. Due to family obligations (college tuition), an RV purchase is not in my immediate future, thus I will have an extended research phase.

3. I THOROUGHLY enjoy learning about RVs and the RV life style and I am so impressed with RVers and their willingness to share their experiences and to help others as indicated by this forum and your post.

I appreciate your thoughtful post and wisdom.

BTW, I love your description of your DGD!!! 🙂 I have a DD that is 17. She is everything that you describe with your DGD. She is witty, creative, artistic, post emo, has a variety of hair colors, beautiful, smart, etc., but she often puts the weight of the world on her shoulders.

Until I can get more serious about my first RV, I will continue to research, dream, and interact with wondeful folks like you!

Take care,

Dean

[RobertRyan]

Not misreading yout post, more stunned by your exaggeration. I travel on something like that every two weeks Remember I have driven the E450 and the thing was terrible, probably the worst MH base I have encountered
I will give it too you your embellishing of the obvious, would do credit to the great writers of fiction

[pnichols]

Robert,

You are misreading the road in the background of my Death Valley photo. It's severe sharp rocks just like those we're camped on ... no grading anywhere. That road happens to be a 4X4 road in one of it's more level sections before the nasties start behind us in the hills - but loaded with rocks nevertheless. Jeeps and 4X4s came down it while we camped just off it.

What makes you think that an E450 chassis somehow isn't a 1-1/4 ton truck in every sense of the word? Granted ours doesn't have built-in BlueTooth capability and it has only leaf springs and coil springs. Are you saying it's not capable of carrying 14,050 lbs. around very long and/or do you have no use for it's V10? Remember ... I'm using our E450 under-loaded at all times so it has plenty of design margins throughout. Just what I wanted in a truck under our Class C.

BTW, my DW could never get up into that strange looking thing in your photo above - nor would I want her to have to ... and where would I get that contraption repaired if and when needed anywhere in the Western U.S. like I can our Ford chassis (which has never needed it yet). .... and of course our Class C could easily traverse the road that your photo rig is on. 🙂

[j-d]

In the biggest rigs, like 18-wheel road tractors, the rear axles are true tandem and also duallies. Eight tires back there and both axles are powered. The big "tour" buses and many Class A's have a "tag" axle with a single tire on each end. The forward rear axle is dually and powered and the tag relieves some of the weight. I don't know how many Class A's do this, but I've seen the tour buses lift the tag axle to aid in close quarters maneuvering.

I can see how tandem singles on a motorhome would be less subject to that extreme scrubbing in close maneuvers that trailers are. But I think it's because you can force a trailer into a jacknife position with the tow vehicle. Motorhome can't jacknife itself. Tour bus can't literally jacknife itself, but some have such an extreme "cut" in the steering that they'll drag the tag sideways unless they lift it.

[RobertRyan]

True Expedition Vehicle, buit for severe roads Off Road, not like your on road E450

[RobertRyan]

pnichols wrote:

RobertRyan wrote:
I honestly cannot believe you, It seems you are on some sort of fantasy trip. Yes I have been to Death Valley and Furnace Creek, no way you can describe them as Off Road.
The Potash mining was a major industry there,you cannot miss it if you had been there

Robert, you need to get out more on these forums ... and maybe try Death Valley again too, avoiding the normal tourist spots to better test whatever RV you'd be in.

I've posted this photo before of our last trip to DV with two other couples in their E-Series Class C motorhomes. This photo is in addition to other photos I've posted over the years of some of the other "offroad" places we've been to with our Class C. Our rig is the 24 foot E450 on the left: 🙂

I know you have,but that is NOT going off road, that is similar to what that Jayco Motorhome did. You can see the graded dirt road in the background

[RobertRyan]

j-d wrote:
Trailer tandems really scrub in tight manauvers, like jackknifing, on pavement. You hear then creak and groan, even springs and shackles grinding. Tire may dismount if not fully inflated. Lug nuts loosen.

Fortunately this is rare and can usually be avoided. Most of the time this happens to RVers, we're on sand or gravel and the scrubbing gets taken out on the surface, not the tires.

Not a problem, with inline Duallies, they are not Trailer Tandems, Conventional Duallies with one axle are infamous for tyre blowouts, especially over very rocky ground

[pnichols]

j-d wrote:
Trailer tandems really scrub in tight manauvers, like jackknifing, on pavement.

That's exactly what I'm talking about ... except you're of course referring to the exaggerated situation of tight turning. The same thing is constantly going on when traveling down the highway on gentle curves, but to a much smaller degree. The basic geometry that causes it is still present.

The net affect on tire wear over thousands of miles is my concern with tandem axle setups. I guess I'm talking about what's best, versus what seems to work good enough such that folks aren't alert to what's really going on. This scrubbing that occurs becomes more detrimental with the heavier the weight that the tandem axles are carrying. I've even seen tandem axles on huge Class A motorhomes, which with all their weight also have to jocky around making tight turns when positioning into camping spots. Uuuuggghhh. :E

Regarding military vehicles and construction vehicles with tandem axels that are much of the time not on solid surfaces - that's another story. For these type of usages, the other advantages of tandem axles probably out-weigh the tread surface wear disadvantages.