300 feet of Underground Cat6 ???

[TenOC]

At my long-term parking location I need to run a 300 foot Ethernet cable for my internet connection. I will be using Cat6 unshielded full copper underground cable. Question.

1. Since only 1/2 of the wires (4 of the 😎 are used, would I gain any advantage by parallel connecting the unused wired with the used one? For example the Green and Orange as one and the blue and brown as the second. The thought is that this would cut the resistance (drop) in half.

2. I am going to be using underground (non gel) cable - I could not find gel filled Cat6 cable. Is there any advantage in putting it in 1/2 plastic conduit?

[TenOC]

SCVJeff wrote:
I guess we'll never know why the OP doesn't even acknowledge the use of RF on this run. Oh well..

I am sorry, I really do not know what you are talking about with "RF".

If you are talking about Wifi, I have tried it with an omnidirectional antenna at one end with poor results. It is difficult (not impossible) to put an antenna at the other end.

A simple TEMPORARY CAT5 indoor cable laid on the ground gave much better results. Now it is time to put the cable underground.

[SCVJeff]

I guess we'll never know why the OP doesn't even acknowledge the use of RF on this run. Oh well..

[jhilley]

Matt_Colie wrote:
Simple Advice here from another dinosaur.

READ WHAT JHILLY WROTE.
Buy cable. Good Cable.
Put it in pipe. I am not sure why he recommends 1", I have used smaller, I will bet that there is a story there.

Matt

The tubing comes in a coil, it is difficult to pull through any thing less than 1", especially at 300'. You can usually suck a poly pull string through the tubing with a shop vac. If you can't do it with the string itself, use a little foam "mouse" usually available at home improvement centers.

This video shows how to make a mouse out of a piece of plastic.

Improvising a Conduit Mouse

I usually just make a wad out of the string with knots and that does the job. Foam ear plugs also work.

[Matt_Colie]

Simple Advice here from another dinosaur.

READ WHAT JHILLY WROTE.
Buy cable. Good Cable.
Put it in pipe. I am not sure why he recommends 1", I have used smaller, I will bet that there is a story there.

Matt

[jhilley]

Gene&Ginny wrote:

TenOC wrote:
...Question,
(1) Would I get any protection from lighting if I ran a bare wire (grounded at each end) in the conduit beside the CAT5e cable? I am thinking about using some wire that was original used to run an electrical fence. It is probably in the 20 gauge range and I think it is aluminum.
Probably will not give any protection

(2) Would this "ground" wire close to the CAT5e cable interfere with the signal?
That wire would have little or no effect. We used to run bundles of Cat5 together in cable racks all the time. Adjacent wires were never a problem.

It would not provide any protection, but would not interfere. You really don't have to worry about lightning in an underground installation. If you do have a lightning problem it will come in over power or overhead telephone, not your buried Ethernet.

[DarthMuffin]

TenOC wrote:
At my long-term parking location I need to run a 300 foot Ethernet cable for my internet connection. I will be using Cat6 unshielded full copper underground cable. Question.

1. Since only 1/2 of the wires (4 of the 😎 are used, would I gain any advantage by parallel connecting the unused wired with the used one? For example the Green and Orange as one and the blue and brown as the second. The thought is that this would cut the resistance (drop) in half.

2. I am going to be using underground (non gel) cable - I could not find gel filled Cat6 cable. Is there any advantage in putting it in 1/2 plastic conduit?

To answer your questions...

1. No, don't do that. The pairs are twisted at different rates. If you use part of one and part of another the two runs will be different lengths, causing problems. Even worse, if you used say orange and orange/white together you'd totally lose the benefit of the twisted pair.

2. Get direct burial rated stuff and it should work fine. Ethernet is rated for 300', so you're pushing it but within spec. Actually, CAT6 is a pain to work with and as of yet there's no communication spec that requires CAT6. It will all work over CAT5E, but the CAT6 may future-proof you. As for the conduit, it will give protection against critters and a little against shovels, and if you put in a pull string then you've got a way to run additional cable should you need it.

[Gene_Ginny]

TenOC wrote:
...Question,
(1) Would I get any protection from lighting if I ran a bare wire (grounded at each end) in the conduit beside the CAT5e cable? I am thinking about using some wire that was original used to run an electrical fence. It is probably in the 20 gauge range and I think it is aluminum.
Probably will not give any protection

(2) Would this "ground" wire close to the CAT5e cable interfere with the signal?
That wire would have little or no effect. We used to run bundles of Cat5 together in cable racks all the time. Adjacent wires were never a problem.

[TenOC]

Thanks for all the input. I will be using CAT5e gel filled underground cable. I will also put it in 1/2 PVC conduit. There is lots of room for the CAT5 without ends connectors. This way if I need to pull a replacement cable for any reason, I will not need to re-dig.

Question,
(1) Would I get any protection from lighting if I ran a bare wire (grounded at each end) in the conduit beside the CAT5e cable? I am thinking about using some wire that was original used to run an electrical fence. It is probably in the 20 gauge range and I think it is aluminum.

(2) Would this "ground" wire close to the CAT5e cable interfere with the signal?

[SCVJeff]

I'm still curious why this can't be done with RF ?

[Gdetrailer]

joebedford wrote:

Gene&Ginny wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:
...This should say it all..

THICKNET

That link SAYS IT IS OBSOLETE......

Yes, that device IS obsolete.

There is a whole new generation of coax devices that convert Ethernet packets to RF over the coax using a different frequency band for each direction to maintain full duplex (send receive at the same time) operation. You can get a pair of devices for just about $100.

Thank you. A least you also understand that just because it's coax it doesn't mean 10base5.

STILL OBSOLETE.

AND I would never consider BURYING RG-8 UNDERGROUND.

And YES, I HAVE LOTS OF EXPERIENCE WITH RG-8 with RF AND DATA.

I STILL CANNOT RECOMMEND IT AS A MEANS FOR A HOMEOWNER TO GET DATA FROM POINT A TO POINT B. THERE ARE CHEAPER AND EASIER WAYS FOR A DIY DATA LINE (not to mention easy to obtain).

For the OP of this thread, it is just THREE HUNDRED FEET of twisted pair which is well within the specs of 328 ft.

I have personally used just under 350 ft of twisted pair at 1 gigabit speeds with no degradation of network speeds pushing 12-15 gig files all day long.

Even for business purposes there ARE other methods which are PREFERRED over the archaic coax..

[joebedford]

Gene&Ginny wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:
...This should say it all..

THICKNET

That link SAYS IT IS OBSOLETE......

Yes, that device IS obsolete.

There is a whole new generation of coax devices that convert Ethernet packets to RF over the coax using a different frequency band for each direction to maintain full duplex (send receive at the same time) operation. You can get a pair of devices for just about $100.

Thank you. A least you also understand that just because it's coax it doesn't mean 10base5.

[Gene_Ginny]

Gdetrailer wrote:
...This should say it all..

THICKNET

That link SAYS IT IS OBSOLETE......

Yes, that device IS obsolete.

There is a whole new generation of coax devices that convert Ethernet packets to RF over the coax using a different frequency band for each direction to maintain full duplex (send receive at the same time) operation. You can get a pair of devices for just about $100.

[jhilley]

Cat 5e direct burial cable costs about 15 cents/ft. 300 ft would be $45. Cat e jacks are about $5ea, two (one for each end) would be $10. You would need a patch cable at each end about $10 ea., $20 for two. 300 ft of 1" poly tubing is about 30 cents per foot,$90.

Total cost $45 + $10 + $20 + $90 = $165 Total Cost

[Gdetrailer]

joebedford wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:
As older_fossil sort of mentioned, Coax USED to be used, it IS OBSOLETE.

It is NOT OBSOLETE.

It is much more difficult use in most environments so it isn't used there (where it used to be). However, for a long span (say more than a mile) it's what I would use. Cat 5/6 would be much more problematic.

This should say it all..

THICKNET

That link SAYS IT IS OBSOLETE.

MORE

This link SAYs..

“10Base5 (ThickNet - "Frozen Garden Hose") Connections
Cable Type: Heavy duty co-axial (50W), approximately 9.5mm or 10.3mm diameter
Maximum segment length: 500m
Maximum nodes per segment: 100
Terminators must be placed at both ends of the segment
The ancient 10Base5 cable was coined as "Frozen Garden Hose" due to the large, barely flexible coax cable. The direct connection to the end station is a DB-15 socket is called AUI (Attachment Unit Interface). It's very name implies it requires an "attachment unit" to be connected to it . . . i.e., a converter called a Transceiver. The transceiver can be directly connected to the DB-15 socket, or an AUI cable can be used. The AUI cable length, due to poor cross-talk, should be at least 2.5 M but not more than 50 M.”


Thicknet for NEW INSTALLATIONS for all intents and purposes IS OBSOLETE..

To setup Thicknet you NEED RG-8 coax which is nearly ½ inch in diameter at about $.80 per ft.

You NEED “N” connectors which are not cheap nor an easy install for the novice at $2 each.

You NEED “terminators for each end, can’t find them for sale but I will guess $5 each..

You NEED a “TAP” to AUI connection (not cheap and hard to find new, manufacturers have ceased production so what is available is NOS, used or refurbed) for $90 or more (you will need one for each tap needed). Vampire taps require a special tool to tap into the coax.

You NEED a “AUI” cable at about $10, you will need one for each tap.

You NEED a “AUI” to transceiver which converts the AUI to twisted pair OR a twisted pair hub with “AUI” connection (these hubs ONLY come in 10 Mbps speed) OR a NIC card with AUI… transceiver cost is $40, you will need one for each tap..

Nic card with AUI, no longer made..

Network hub with AUI $20-$30

There are also very specific rules that pertain to how close the taps can be placed to the termination that need to be followed.

All that and your max distance is 1,600 ft AND LESS THAN 10Mbps..
So, lets add up the cost..

1600ft of RG-8 is $1280
2 “N” connectors at $4
2 Terminators at $10
2 Taps to AUI at $180
2 AUI cables at $20
2 AUI to twisted pair Transceivers at $80
$1574 to go 1,600 ft or about $.98 per ft, WITHOUT SHIPPING COSTS OF 1,600 FT of RG-8!

Scaled down to the OPs need of 300ft

RG-8 would be $240 and total cost would be $534, WITHOUT SHIPPING COSTS OF 300ft of RG-8!

Now twisted pair cat5e cable costs $.05 per ft, ends cost $.06 each

Ethernet repeaters can be bought for as little as $80.

OPs need of 300ft would cost $15 for wire, $.12 for ends and $80 for a repeater for a grand total of $95.12..

However, the OP DOES NOT need a repeater for 300ft so actual cost is $15.12 or $.0504 per ft! A far cry from $.98 per ft for the Thicknet solution!

AND the OP CAN get 1 gigabit speed up to 2,000 ft (up to 6,000 ft at 100 Mbps) and at a cost of only $.32 per ft including the repeater..

For an existing network that is hobbled at 10 Mbps thicknet MIGHT make sense but in the real modern day world it is a dinosaur in speed, if I was faced with an existing thicknet I would be switching it over to twisted pair if it failed in a heartbeat. The cost to convert to twisted pair is less expensive than buying old thicknet parts and that IS including MATERIAL AND INSTALLATION costs..

I can’t imagine even trying to retrieve web based email, it would be a very slow tedious painful process if accessing it from the WWW or internal web based mail servers..

Thicknet is TEN TIMES SLOWER than a 54 mbps wifi connection. A webpage that takes 1 second on 54 Mbps wifi would take FIFTY SECONDS to load on Thicknet.. Pretty much EVERYTHING now days is “web based”, even within many companies if it isn’t web based it will be in a few years.. Every year passing by, less and less legacy applications will be non web based. Companies will eventually be forced to upgrade their systems as hardware fails..

My company hasn’t shipped ANYTHING with Thicknet or even thinnet capability for 15+ years (and I have been with the same company for 17 years)..

Coax is not “superior” for noise rejection, twisted pair actually has a much higher “common mode” noise rejection due to the use of “balanced lines” and is the reason it can operate perfectly fine without a shield. Noise imposed across the paired wire is IGNORED since the network cards input is looking for a DIFFERENCE IN VOLTAGE BETWEEN the wires of that pair. Noise appears as the SAME voltage on both wires of the pair.

Coax by it’s nature is what is known as an UNBALANCED line, unbalanced lines cannot determine between noise and actual real data and is highly dependant on the SHEILDING (which is only 80%-90% shielding, not 100%) to reduce the stray noise.

Unbalance lines also have a very nasty habit of creating what is known as “ground loops”. The shield of the coax is connected on BOTH ends of the run. This shield also gets GROUNDED through your networking equipment on BOTH ENDS. This creates small currents to flow through the shield since it is NOT at the same earth ground potential..That current creates small but very destructive to data voltages across the shield.. It is for that reason you don’t see long runs of unbalanced microphones in audio work..

Although the link below talks about audio, it holds true for DATA..

Balanced vs unbalance lines

Let the knuckle dragging Neanderthal Thicknet and thinnet dinosaur rest..