Batwing vs.BatMan vs. Jack: The Results.. finally (LONG)

[SCVJeff]

I finally had time to buy a King Controls Jack antenna (on sale) for a shoot-out with my existing Winegard Batwing antenna with the Wingman add-on. This is the Jack replacement head that is a direct replacement on the Winegard mast.This test was done in Santa Clarita, just North of Los Angeles and 33 miles NW of Mt. Wilson, the 5000’ central transmit site for all the primary TV stations in LA, Orange, and significant parts of Ventura, San Bernardino, & Riverside Counties. What’s unique in Los Angeles is that we have an entirely loaded up UHF and VHF TV spectrum with VHF Ch.7, 9, 11, 13 all occupied and perfect for looking at these antennas. While there are stations scattered all over the area, Wilsom is where all the big boys live.

The following screen shots were generated by a Rhode & Schwartz ETL Spectrum Analyzer plugged into the Aux TV output of the Winegard switchbox in the RV. All lights: LED and Florescents are off to keep the RFI down to just the noise generated by the antennas internal pre-amp. That’s why there are also pics showing the pre-amp Off on each antenna and band, just to see how much noise they generate in addition to amplifying the signals at the antenna.

The measurements done were:
- Both Batwing & Jack pointed directly at Mt. Wilson on UHF. This same test was done with and without the Wingman attached on the Batwing.

- Both batwing & Jack pointed directly at Mt. Wilson on VHF. Wingman not tested has as it has no effect on VHF

- Additionally I took measurements at: -90, -45, +45, +90, and -175 degrees (mechanical stop problem). These are +& - measurements from the primary path of 116 degrees(mag) direct to Mt. Wilson.


The technical folks here will be able to read these pix, but for the non-technicals, pay particular attention to M1. M(arker)1 is simply a measurement point that measures antenna signal at the exact same frequency for consistency and displays the result number at the top of the screen. BTW- M1 is showing the TV carrier of Ch.36 (KTLA) on UHF, and Ch.7 (KABC) on VHF . LOWER NUMBERS ARE BETTER! Even though these numbers don’t move more than 10 points or so, any change of +-3db is (in marketing lingo) a 100% change in performance. The Wingman increased the Batwing performance by 3db (that can again be seen if you compare a Wingman and non-Wingman pic side by side) on UHF, so they claimed a 100% improvement. Technically true, but as a broad stroke explanation, assume that this 3db difference can easily make the difference between watchable TV or none at all, and the Wingman has proven that. Also when looking at the skew data the techies may notice that the scans are not exactly the same carrier-wise. Thats because I have adjacent channels in the high desert and toward Santa Barbara that will pop up if pointed in that direction. But they have no affect on this data.

If you look at the different signals on each picture, they should track each other. i.e.- The level differences between M1, or the carrier that it is measuring in the screen shot should look, or move vertically in level, exactly the same on all of the TV signals shown in the screen shot. If not, there are possibly response or physical design issues on the antenna. Not broken, just not perfect. Sorry for all of the pix, but it is what it is if someone wants to be able to review any combination in any direction in the future.

Here goes:

Pic #1:
Here is a shot of the Batwing with the Amp OFF just to see how the noise floor changes.



Pic #2:
No change in the noise floor. Thats good! OK, Batwing/ Wingman, Preamp on, pointed at Mt. Wilson on UHF



Pic #3:
Batwing/ Wingman pointed -45 degrees from Mt. Wilson on UHF



Pic #4:
Batwing/ Wingman pointed -90 degrees from Mt. Wilson on UHF




Pic #5:
Batwing/ Wingman pointed +45 degrees from Mt. Wilson on UHF




Pic #6:
Batwing/ Wingman pointed +90 degrees from Mt. Wilson on UHF



Pic #7:
Batwing/ Wingman pointed -175 degrees from Mt. Wilson on UHF (Backwards)

Looking at M1, a 21db difference is huge! This is a very directional antenna from 90 degrees around to the back of the antenna, to 270 degrees. Thats a good thing as it helps eliminate reflections and interference from other nearby transmitters.



Pic #8:
THESE ARE THE BATWING VHF TESTS
Batwing only pointed at Mt. Wilson on VHF





Pic #9:
Batwing only -45 degrees from Mt. Wilson on VHF




NOTE: + & - 90 DEGREE OR BACKSIDE TESTS WERE NOT PERFORMED ON VHF


---------------------------------------------------------------------
BATWING UHF TESTS WITH WINGMAN REMOVED

Pic #10:
Batwing only pointed at Mt. Wilson on UHF




Pic #11:
Batwing only -45 degrees from Mt. Wilson on UHF




Pic #12:
Batwing only -90 degrees from Mt. Wilson on UHF




Pic #13:
Batwing only +45 degrees from Mt. Wilson on UHF




Pic #14:
Batwing only +90 degrees from Mt. Wilson on UHF




Pic #15:
Batwing only pointed -175 degrees from Mt. Wilson on UHF (Backwards)


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JACK UHF PERFORMANCE TESTS

Preamp OFF test is obviously the same as it was for the Batwing. Noise is noise, so this was skipped assuming it looks exactly like the 1st picture.



Pic #16:
Preamp on. Essentially no change in the noise floor. Not too bad. Jack Antenna pointed at Mt. Wilson on UHF




Pic #17:
Jack Antenna pointed -45 degrees from Mt. Wilson on UHF




Pic #18:
Jack Antenna pointed -90 degrees from Mt. Wilson on UHF




Pic #19:
Jack Antenna pointed +45 degrees from Mt. Wilson on UHF




Pic #20:
Jack Antenna pointed +90 degrees from Mt. Wilson on UHF.
NOTE THAT THIS IS ACTUALLY ~80 DEGREES DUE TO MECHANICAL STOPS




Pic #21:
Jack Antenna pointed -175 degrees from Mt. Wilson on UHF (backwards)



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JACK VHF PERFORMANCE TESTS

Pic #22:
Jack Antenna pointed at Mt. Wilson on VHF




Pic #23:
Jack Antenna pointed -45 degrees from Mt. Wilson on VHF




Pic #24:
Jack Antenna pointed -90 degrees from Mt. Wilson on VHF




Pic #25:
Jack Antenna pointed +45 degrees from Mt. Wilson on VHF




Pic #26:
Jack Antenna pointed +90 degrees from Mt. Wilson on VHF
NOTE THAT THIS IS ACTUALLY ~80 DEGREES DUE TO MECHANICAL STOPS




Pic #27:
Jack Antenna pointed -175 degrees from Mt. Wilson on VHF (backwards)



---------------------------------------------------------------------


This is a known good batwing antenna used here. So depending on the age and condition of your Batwing, and whether or not it has a Wingman attached, there may be significant differences compared to these tests.

I kind of expected the poorer performance with the Jack on VHF, but -10db is significant. So on VHF, the Batwing clearly shines over Jack. There are too many VHF stations across the country to ignore this. The other thing that bothers me is the way that the other carriers decay when rotating the Jack. They appear to not be linear, and that's strange

Some keep bringing up the point that the Jack is "easier to point". I didn't see that in these tests. Looking at the Batwing/ Wingman (BatMan )combo against the Jack, and looking at a UHF 45 degree slew on both, there is a -5> 6db drop from the peaked carrier. Essentially the same.

I haven't really looked at the non-Wingman data much just because BatMan and Jack are more closely matched. (edit: Thanks to Dutch for catching me comparing a wrong pic for UHF). Even on UHF there is close to a 6db difference between the two antennas. But the -10db loss in gain with the Jack on VHF is an immediate show stopper for me.

Wheres the Tylenol... ?


(edit: Added numbers to each pic)

[Tom_M1]

Both the amplified and non-amplified Sensar III are physically identical. I have both and have used the Wingman on both. It improves the UHF signal on both. The SensarPro is nothing but an amplifier with some added bells and whistles. It would work on any antenna providing that a powered version needs 12 volt DC and a non-powered one does not have a balun that would short the DC.

One would suspect that a gain of zero would be unity but as Bill says, that is not the case.

[SCVJeff]

Bill.Satellite wrote:

SCVJeff wrote:

Bill.Satellite wrote:
To use the Sensar Pro in a manner other than it was designed seems to make no particular sense to me but I will not argue with you. I just want others to know that Winegard states the Wingman will not improve performance on any non-amplified antenna (despite what you might read in a marketing piece) and the Sensar Pro is designed to be used with a 10 default setting and only adjusted up or down if there are reception issues.

Tom is right, and I have no idea why they would state it won't work in a non-amplified antenna, unless it physically won't mount? If thats not the case, they should review their sales literature because its incorrect and they are losing customers.

I think I will go with the 50+ years of TV experience provided by the Winegard Company. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not. I am just repeating the information provided by my employer.

I get that. But unless these is a physical problem with mounting it, the Wingman will to nothing but improve the gain of the antenna exactly as it does the powered antennas..
Call engineering and ask them the question directly, its the companies loss to say this without reason. There's at least one antenna designer here that will tell you the same thing. Ether way, Tom is correct on this.

[Bill_Satellite]

SCVJeff wrote:

Bill.Satellite wrote:
To use the Sensar Pro in a manner other than it was designed seems to make no particular sense to me but I will not argue with you. I just want others to know that Winegard states the Wingman will not improve performance on any non-amplified antenna (despite what you might read in a marketing piece) and the Sensar Pro is designed to be used with a 10 default setting and only adjusted up or down if there are reception issues.

Tom is right, and I have no idea why they would state it won't work in a non-amplified antenna, unless it physically won't mount? If thats not the case, they should review their sales literature because its incorrect and they are losing customers.

I think I will go with the 50+ years of TV experience provided by the Winegard Company. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not. I am just repeating the information provided by my employer.

[Bill_Satellite]

SCVJeff wrote:

Tom_M wrote:
---SNIP---
The SensarPro is a 10db amp. The gain setting can be set from 0 to 20. 20 equates to 10db and 0 cuts off the signal completely. I am assuming that the scale is linear but who knows? I chose to set it to 1 (0.5db) for readings of the amplified antennas because that's the lowest that would pass a signal. The SensarPro works well for either the batwing or Jack.---SNIP---

What do you mean "cuts it off"? As in nothing through the device at all? Seems to me that 0db is unity gain on the amp. I assume this is nothing more than a variable gain line amp, ya?

My guess is that the Sensor Pro is likely nothing but a generic TV front end/ tuner. They make those chipsets by the millions. So for critical testing I'll still trust my $60k instrument. I don't think I have an easy way to generate an accurate DTV carrier, because it would be fun to run the SensarPro through the mill and see how well it tracks it's user settings.

Setting the Sensar Pro to 0 gain completely turns off the 12V power to the antenna and has the same effect that pushing the power button on the 12V power supply has. No power, no signal. Setting it to 1 is also bad unless you are sitting very, very close to those TV towers.

[schneid]

Wow, what a thread! Should I put my Sensar/Wingman back on? Maybe I could stick it on top and couple the two. Maybe put it on a swivel mount so they can point in different directions. I think you can pull that off without ghosting now that it is digital. Glad I have DirecTV. It's starting to seem pretty simple compared to this.

[SCVJeff]

Bill.Satellite wrote:
To use the Sensar Pro in a manner other than it was designed seems to make no particular sense to me but I will not argue with you. I just want others to know that Winegard states the Wingman will not improve performance on any non-amplified antenna (despite what you might read in a marketing piece) and the Sensar Pro is designed to be used with a 10 default setting and only adjusted up or down if there are reception issues.

Tom is right, and I have no idea why they would state it won't work in a non-amplified antenna, unless it physically won't mount? If thats not the case, they should review their sales literature because its incorrect and they are losing customers.

[SCVJeff]

Tom_M wrote:
---SNIP---
The SensarPro is a 10db amp. The gain setting can be set from 0 to 20. 20 equates to 10db and 0 cuts off the signal completely. I am assuming that the scale is linear but who knows? I chose to set it to 1 (0.5db) for readings of the amplified antennas because that's the lowest that would pass a signal. The SensarPro works well for either the batwing or Jack.---SNIP---

What do you mean "cuts it off"? As in nothing through the device at all? Seems to me that 0db is unity gain on the amp. I assume this is nothing more than a variable gain line amp, ya?

My guess is that the Sensor Pro is likely nothing but a generic TV front end/ tuner. They make those chipsets by the millions. So for critical testing I'll still trust my $60k instrument. I don't think I have an easy way to generate an accurate DTV carrier, because it would be fun to run the SensarPro through the mill and see how well it tracks it's user settings.

[Bill_Satellite]

To use the Sensar Pro in a manner other than it was designed seems to make no particular sense to me but I will not argue with you. I just want others to know that Winegard states the Wingman will not improve performance on any non-amplified antenna (despite what you might read in a marketing piece) and the Sensar Pro is designed to be used with a 10 default setting and only adjusted up or down if there are reception issues.

[Tom_M1]

Bill.Satellite wrote:
Tom_M
Thanks for the clarification. It explains why something sounded wrong.
The Wingman does not work with the Winegard non-amplified head using it or not using it would make no difference. Also, the non-amplified head used an interior amplifier and not the current power supply used by the current Batwing and the Sensar Pro in it's place would not be the same thing.
The comparisons you have between the Jack and the amplified Batwing with and without the Wingman using the Sensar Pro should be valid but there is no way of knowing how the gain setting or the signal strength reading of the Sensar Pro would effect the Jack as it was never designed to work with that antenna.
I am also not sure of your dB info on the Sensar Pro or what settings you are using. A gain setting of 10 is the default and that setting should be used for all search routines. The gain would only be adjusted up or down if a received signal was too weak or, in rare cases, too strong.

The Wingman is a passive device and works whether the antenna has a built in amplifier or not. It requires no power. It has three director elements that concentrate the UHF RF toward the UHF receive elements in the central hub of the batwing. I know for a fact that it works with the non-amplified batwing. Winegard's literature states that it works with all Sensar antennas. I replaced the original Delta non-amplified antenna with a non-amplified batwing. The wallplate on my coach was a Winegard with amplifier. I was having less than stellar reception so I then added the Wingman. I later replaced this wallplate with the SensarPro. After reading many positive responses about the Jack I decided to give it a try. The amplified batwing comes from my pickup camper that I had prior to my motorhome.

The SensarPro is a 10db amp. The gain setting can be set from 0 to 20. 20 equates to 10db and 0 cuts off the signal completely. I am assuming that the scale is linear but who knows? I chose to set it to 1 (0.5db) for readings of the amplified antennas because that's the lowest that would pass a signal. The SensarPro works well for either the batwing or Jack.

I'm not trying to disprove Jeff's findings. I tried to do as objective of a comparison with the equipment I had. Both of our tests show that the Jack sucks for VHF.

Jeff,
I'm looking forward to your findings on the SensorPro.

[SCVJeff]

Tom_M wrote:

SCVJeff wrote:
The question is where your TV is picking off this measurement?

Jeff,
My signal strength readings were taken from the SensarPro display not the TV. The antenna feeds directly into the SensarPro.

Thats what I exchanged the Jack for. Maybe I'll being the toys back home and look at that amp just for grins..

[MNtundraRet]

Just a note for any people reading this post who go for extreme range using different RV antennas (purchased or home-made), and adding additional amplification.

The best search tool that will show the map, transmitter locations, lines from RV location to transmitters, list of located stations, and station transmitter information, seems to be "tvfool.com".

Using in map version of locator works best for me. You can enter name of nearest town and state to start with. Then back off the map slightly to see where the campground location is found on the map. Use the mouse selector to hold and move the ICON to your location. The program redoes the station list.

Now the fun part begins. If you can now amplify signal to be around or more than 20 dB you will find way more stations than predicted in the list (10 foot antenna).

I now go to the Antenna input box and change input from 50 to 200 feet (depending on daylight or night signals). The list of channels grows to include all stations found by my system. There is a box to check for lines to show to transmitters on the map. If I get stations (digital) around 150 miles or more at night upping the antenna height number will make the program map and show stations found.

Mark B.

[Bill_Satellite]

Tom_M
Thanks for the clarification. It explains why something sounded wrong.
The Wingman does not work with the Winegard non-amplified head using it or not using it would make no difference. Also, the non-amplified head used an interior amplifier and not the current power supply used by the current Batwing and the Sensar Pro in it's place would not be the same thing.
The comparisons you have between the Jack and the amplified Batwing with and without the Wingman using the Sensar Pro should be valid but there is no way of knowing how the gain setting or the signal strength reading of the Sensar Pro would effect the Jack as it was never designed to work with that antenna.
I am also not sure of your dB info on the Sensar Pro or what settings you are using. A gain setting of 10 is the default and that setting should be used for all search routines. The gain would only be adjusted up or down if a received signal was too weak or, in rare cases, too strong.

[wa8yxm]

Someone commented on "The supplied amplifier"

Folks. Normally the box inside your RV is NOT an amplifier (There are a few exceptions, the Sensar Pro I use being one of 'em) The amplifier is in the antenna head.

The box inside is a combination switch/power supply. Nothing more and should be interchangable.

The King singnal finder thing is just a signal finder

The Sensar Pro is much, much, more.

[Tom_M1]

SCVJeff wrote:
The question is where your TV is picking off this measurement?

Jeff,
My signal strength readings were taken from the SensarPro display not the TV. The antenna feeds directly into the SensarPro.

[SCVJeff]

Bill.Satellite wrote:

Trail-Mate wrote:
Now use the supplied amp with the Jack and re-test, I have an been using a Jack for some time now. I can say for me, Big Improvement happened when I switched to use the amp supplied with the Jack and not the one for the batwing.

Just so it does not sound like someone here is giving you a hard time about this post, he is right but just short on words.

At the time I actually was. The Tylenol wore off and that post popped up after 5 hours on the CAD PC with no lunch. Sorry about that. But if you read the post and the notes on the pictures it's pretty clear what gets through the antenna with the amplifiers off. Look at the 1st picture since it was the very 1st test done.